I didn't like a specific aspect of Hanako's route.

[Planguy]

The game actively seems to attack you for the likely reason you are attracted to Hanako in the first place. The game was like, "Oh,you like the shy girl? Well, you attempts to be considerate towards her are actively harming her growth as a character!"

I mean, it's not actually that bad of a lesson to teach the player, but I think the game went too far and was unbelievable about the whole thing. Hanako was fragile and it's unbelievable how much the game frames how you should be pushing her to open up about stuff. Instead of subverting the expectation of a cute shy burned waifu the game went to an unrealistic "just get over your trauma and legitimate issues, no big deal" place.

[ジョタ－君]

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.
Honestly, from what I understood from her route, no one has the right to treat anyone condescendingly (in a bad sense of the word).
That hanako does not need the help of a classmate, she already has help from professionals, what she needs is a friend (or partner) who treats her like a normal person

[psluuther]

I think it feels a bit strange how in lilly's route it seems like things worked out far better for Hanako since you mostly ignored her. But it's hard to say since when you follow Hanako's route, it cuts off at a point when it seems like things might improve quite a bit for her in the near future. But it was so rough near the end and only became a good ending very abruptly, it's hard to feel like it's a better ending for her.

But I like that they didn't try to simplify her character and really committed to a storyline which I think is pretty realistic. Dealing with a deeply fragile person can make you feel a sense of responsibility that can end up hurting them, and that is a likely result from taking a romantic interest. And because of their fragility it also feels like there is no room for mistakes, which just adds to that sense of responsibility and further gets in the way of a normal relationship of peers. So I don't think it is a judgement on the player so much as just a story in which we deal with a stark unfairness, that people who are scarred with tragedy and abuse also have such difficulty with love.

[Planguy]

I would say that the very fact that Hanako is better off in Lilly's route is a damning judgement of the player. It says that the players very interest in Hanako is a problem. The story had a lesson it wanted to teach but I feel like it did so in a way that felt forced and fake. It's like if Hanako didn't know how to swim you could deal with it is keeping her from swimming or throwing her in the water and letting her learn. There is an obvious middle ground where you help her in the water and hold her hand to make sure she learns to float without panicking, and thus drowning. It feels like the story takes the position that you can either keep Hanako from swimming or you can throw her in the water and those are your two choices. And the correct choice is throwing her in the water.

[psluuther]

I really don't think that was the intention of the story. They are very limited by having to commit to a course of action the protagonist makes without asking for input from the player, since asking for input would mean having to make a lot more content. So I think they made the choice to focus on the pitfalls of a possible romance with a person like Hanako, which I feel like is an honest choice. I don't think judging the player comes into it, though I understand coming away with that impression. I just think the likelihood that such a romance would go well is extremely low, especially between teenagers, and what we're seeing is one of the better possible results.

We didn't really see what happened with Hanako in Lilly's story, but my impression is that we had a similar level of interaction with her there, just offscreen. We were just a normal friend to her, and that worked out really well for her and maybe was just what she needed at that time.

But also, what happens when she gets a boyfriend in Lilly's timeline? That could go badly too and it's a lot more fraught with difficulties and dangers than anything she managed to accomplish in Lilly's route. I think it's a fair assumption that she's going to have a lot of problems with guys in the future, if she has any substantial romantic relationships at all. By contrast, Hanako's route ends with her managing to successfully navigate the beginnings of a romantic relationship with you, and I think it's a fair assumption that after the game ends she will be able to make all the progress we saw her make in Lilly's route. Why wouldn't she be able to? So from that perspective, it seems to me that Hanako's story ends better for her on Hanako's route.

[Planguy]

Yeah, that's fair.

[DontMisunderstand]

I don't think that actually makes sense. Take a look at the Hanako route "bad" ending. Hisao tries to fix her shyness and she gets viscerally angry at him, cutting him out of her life forever for it. Her route embraces the fact that she's shy, and actively goes out of its way to make sure you understand that her being shy is a choice, not the problem. The problem is her anxiety and trauma responses, not the fact that she actively prefers a small social circle.

Though... I think it's telling that all of the endings to the Hanako route are roughly equal outcomes for Hanako herself. It's only through Hisao's eyes that they're better or worse than each other.

[GriffinPilgrim]

It's not about her just getting over her trauma, it's about her not wanting to be constantly protected.

[ジョタ－君]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

I don't think that actually makes sense. Take a look at the Hanako route "bad" ending. Hisao tries to fix her shyness and she gets viscerally angry at him, cutting him out of her life forever for it. Her route embraces the fact that she's shy, and actively goes out of its way to make sure you understand that her being shy is a choice, not the problem. The problem is her anxiety and trauma responses, not the fact that she actively prefers a small social circle.

Though... I think it's telling that all of the endings to the Hanako route are roughly equal outcomes for Hanako herself. It's only through Hisao's eyes that they're better or worse than each other.

Hanako's problem is that Hisao (and many other people) treat her like she's made of porcelain, she just wants people to be normal with her. Regarding her trauma, it is said that she goes to a psychologist so she doesn't need any extra help on that issue.

[Planguy]

I just feel like the game makes the assumption that you are going to try to coddle her, and it wants to punish you for that inclination it assumes you have, while the other likely reaction to the situation the player might have is "You just need to get out of your shell, I'm going to push you until you suffer a breakdown". That is also the way the relationship could go.

The whole relationship feature a lot of intended fail states to facilitate teaching "An Important Lesson". It felt like a lecture more then entertainment.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Planguy:

I just feel like the game makes the assumption that you are going to try to coddle her, and it wants to punish you for that inclination it assumes you have, while the other likely reaction to the situation the player might have is "You just need to get out of your shell, I'm going to push you until you suffer a breakdown". That is also the way the relationship could go.

The whole relationship feature a lot of intended fail states to facilitate teaching "An Important Lesson". It felt like a lecture more then entertainment.

There are only 3 choices you can make. One does nothing, the second determines whether you do or don't get the bad ending, and the third determines whether you get the good or neutral ending. And if you're paying attention at all, Hanako is telling you the correct answer each time. The first real choice is about whether you are seeing the real Hanako or a shapeless blob to protect. Simple as that. If you're paying even a little bit of attention, you see that she's in her out-on-the-town outfit, not her casual clothes. She wouldn't do that just to see Lilly off at the gate, it's painfully obvious she WANTS to go somewhere with you. You only get the bad ending if you very specifically aren't even seeing her as a person in this moment, asserting that you know what she wants better than she does, and making her decisions for her. And then the second decision is simply about how much you care about her, and that determines whether you get the good or neutral ending.

Yeah, the game is aware that some narcissists will insist on doing everything in their power to try and normalize the abnormal. The game is also aware of the tendency of those who've never experienced struggle to react poorly in the presence of those who have. I don't think it's going out of its way to punish players who think like that. I'd say it just realizes who its characters are, as people, and doesn't go out of its way to break its characters to coddle the player.

[Planguy]

I don't mean the choices that are there. Rather I mean the choices that aren't. The way the story could have gone if the story wasn't waiting to shake it's finger at you.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Planguy:

I don't mean the choices that are there. Rather I mean the choices that aren't. The way the story could have gone if the story wasn't waiting to shake it's finger at you.

That's fair. The main feeling I had after the end was "Boy, Hisao kinda sucks as a person doesn't he". Though, I disagree with the idea that it's the story wanting to lecture... Hisao is distinctly his own person the entire time, and isn't acting out of character at any points during the route.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by Planguy:

I don't mean the choices that are there. Rather I mean the choices that aren't. The way the story could have gone if the story wasn't waiting to shake it's finger at you.

I mean you could say that about any visual novel, you can only make the choices the game offers you.
But in this case I'd say it makes sense, as Hisao is not a blank slate type protagonist, he's a character of his own we can and makes his own decisions and he's not the best at understanding people. As such we don;t get choices that Hisao would never make, we only get to nudge him one way or another when his undecided.
I like to think of the player as Hisao's subconscious.

[Erpy]

Originally posted by Planguy:

The game actively seems to attack you for the likely reason you are attracted to Hanako in the first place. The game was like, "Oh,you like the shy girl? Well, you attempts to be considerate towards her are actively harming her growth as a character!"

Hanako was fragile and it's unbelievable how much the game frames how you should be pushing her to open up about stuff. Instead of subverting the expectation of a cute shy burned waifu the game went to an unrealistic "just get over your trauma and legitimate issues, no big deal" place.

The point of the route WAS indeed to make the reader re-examine the notion of shyness (or more accurately: crippling social anxiety) and the implications of someone being attracted to a personality trait that the other person possibly (and in Hanako's case definitely) hates.

Hanako's fragile on the one hand in the way that her anxieties are real and there are lots of things that set them off, but as Lilly reminds Hisao, she's also very resilient underneath. Even though her birthday depressions are crippling, they're still considered something she always bounces back from. I feel like your conclusion of "just get over your trauma and issues, no big deal" is going a bit too far.

Originally posted by Planguy:

It's like if Hanako didn't know how to swim you could deal with it is keeping her from swimming or throwing her in the water and letting her learn. There is an obvious middle ground where you help her in the water and hold her hand to make sure she learns to float without panicking, and thus drowning. It feels like the story takes the position that you can either keep Hanako from swimming or you can throw her in the water and those are your two choices. And the correct choice is throwing her in the water.

Actually, the correct choice the story seems to point at is option 4: let the on-site swimming instructors teach her the floating without panicking part and let her friends have drinks and snacks together with her at the swimming pool bar afterwards.

That's because the relationship between swimming instructor and pupil or therapist and client is not one of equals, but it doesn't really need to be. A healthy relationship between friends IS one of equals, though, and keeping the give-and-take ratio carefully balanced is something that Hanako seems to value very highly. There's several examples: Hanako tells Hisao about the fire that scarred her after she hears about his heart condition from Lilly. She opens up about her past in the orphanage, but also wants to know who Iwanako is. She shows her scars to Hisao after he showed her his. (okay that one had ulterior motives) When Hisao just gives her stuff out of the blue she's grateful, but also a little uncomfy.

She really, really wants to be Hisao's (and Lilly's) equal. She's most at peace when Hisao and her are playing games (either pool or chess) and she appreciates it when Hisao tells her he won't be going easy on her. That pool game was when she was making the biggest attempt to open up to Hisao (until he messed it up at least), not when she was at her lowest and her friend was comforting her, but when she felt at her best and her friend was having a friendly competition with her.

I'm not sure if you noticed Hisao's slip-up in that scene. It was after she made an honest and largely succesful attempt to open up to him and he replied, during a brief moment of nervousness on her part, that he'd protect her. That slip-up silently confirmed all the worst fears Hanako secretly had about Hisao and the actual player choice the day afterwards was whether to do damage control and make Hanako doubt her previous assessment of him or whether to let that assessment fester until it would later blow up.

Hanako has an issue slightly unrelated to her social anxiety; she has severe difficulty trusting her peers on a deeper level. That's not something therapy can completely help her with. She's painfully aware of how she comes across to people and has largely resigned herself to the idea that those who don't shun or bully her will pity her. It doesn't help that her only friend at Yamaku is also the most assertive and nurturing girl on campus. But at least in Lilly's case, she doesn't limit her mothering to Hanako, she also mothers Hisao, her classmates to some degree and even her sister who's 7 years older than her. It's her way of showing she cares, not a way of showing pity.

Hisao, in Hanako's route, on the other hand, does show signs of codependency. He promises to himself he'll be her prince, he promises Hanako he'll protect her and Lilly all but tells him he's trying to distract himself from his current lack of direction in life by obsessing over Hanako's issues instead. That's not a foundation for a healthy relationship.

The whole point of the game specifically mentioning that Hanako takes therapy is to make it clear that helping Hanako with her social anxiety issues isn't a responsibility that's being placed on Hisao's shoulders. Hanako needs time, therapy and support. Support from friends who'll allow her to be there for them and with whom she can feel on equal footing and who are not drawn to her shyness, but to her love of reading, karaoke, love of games and her competitiveness that's less overbearing than Shizune's.

Originally posted by Planguy:

I would say that the very fact that Hanako is better off in Lilly's route is a damning judgement of the player.

This argument frequently comes up, but it's worth remember that the routes occupy different timespans. Pretty much all character development Hanako undergoes in Lilly's route takes place AFTER Lilly returns from Scotland. In other words, AFTER her own route's already over. So she still makes faster progress in her own route, it's just that her route ends after the confession. If Hanako's routes and Lilly's routes had finished up at the same point in time (in other words, if Hanako's route had an act 5 spanning the moments between Lilly's return and the resolution of her migration dilemma), I don't think there'd be a question in what case she'd be better off. As it is, it remains comparing apples to oranges.