Videttes and AI still a major problem

[Fierman]

I just blew away the confederates on the first scenario. went around the lines with my videttes, after which the AI thought of them as a bigger danger, so Davis started running after the videttes all over the field. which left everything open for the union units to go wherever they pleased.

please: this issue had been discussed and noted earlier,. but there never was a reply on it from the devvers. I am close to just giving up with the game as a whole now.

[Malus131]

Just out of curiosity, which AI were you playing against?

[Fierman]

Balanced.

[dfair]

Fierman,
The devs have been ignoring the vidette problem for more than 10 months now.

I wiped out 7 batteries with the Videttes as a test with the CSA AI set on cunning.

The Phase 1 cavalry implemention is unbalanced because:
1) The game is designed as a brigade-level game. Buford had 2 brigades which fought in a skirmish line at Gettysburg. UGG has transformed these brigades into 3 skirmisher units and 2 videttes.

This is not consistent with the game design.

2) The only officers that have the option to move independently of troops are Corps-level commanders. Buford is a Divsion Commander. Buford is the only Division Commander in the game - and he has the status of a Corps Commander.

This is not consistent with the game design.

3) Men on horses were large targets. In UGG the casualty rates for cavalry has been nerfed.

This is not consistent with the game design.

4) Artillery set on canister with 100% status do not fire on cavalry when it charges.

This is not consistent with the game design.

5) Videttes were not a unit - they were 3 to 5 men every couple of hundred yards to watch the enemby. Why is a regimental - level unit given independent status in a brigade-level game?

This is not consistent with the game design.

The Videttes fiction, not consistent with the game design, and should be removed.

[Fierman]

Well, I can imagine it would be fun to implement cavalry units and see how they could do otherwise. But they would have to change:
- they should be able to mount/dismount
- they should be able to extend their lines of operation
- they should be far more vulnerable than they are now

These choices would have some serious consequences for a wargame though. Since a lot of issues are less abstracted, it would mean that to keep up with game consistency you would have to implement other factors as well:
- divisional integrity
- supply
- chain of command
- a structured order system

which are all way too much for the scope of this game. I doubt it would be workable/fun even in this setting. conclusion:
devs: please get rid of the videttes asap.

[Peabody]

At the least change the name to Cav. Leave videttes with 3 to 6 riders.

[dfair]

Agree with the idea of eliminating the Videttes.

Not sure why divisional integrity, supply, chain of command, etc... would be tied to videttes ;)

[Temujin]

Add into the complaint about Videttes that they're range is longer than Archers range even though Archers units are atop a hill and fortified, they can just ride almost within range and constantly tear me apart..nothing like seeing 100 guys mounted on horses charge to the bottom of a hill and shoot 2-7 guys that're on top of the hill and in cover while sustaining 1-2 losses themselves from a barrage of 2000 plus muskets shooting downhill. Also..Calefs cannon fire at 2x the rate of any Confederate cannon and kill 3-5 guys with every single shot starting from the moment you begin the game. Really starts getting sad if you put all 5 confederate cannon around on ridges and they're still doing less damage than Calefs 1 cannon.

[Reuenthal]

I have before advocated having Davis or Pettigrew split into 2 regiments to make the situation in the first phase more balanced as the Union has an extreme advantage in unit numbers. This isn't just to make it easier for the CSA but to make it less easy for the Union to win, in its current state Day 1 Phase 1 it is impossible for a player to lose to the AI when playing as the Union.

[JungleTears]

Originally posted by dfair:

Agree with the idea of eliminating the Videttes.

Not sure why divisional integrity, supply, chain of command, etc... would be tied to videttes ;)

I dont think eliminiating the videttes would be a good idea. Rather i think make them 40 men per unit and use them as scouts since the rebels attack and you could use some intel while defending. That would make them fun and balanced.

[dfair]

I agree that giving the videttes a historically accurate role would be the best solution.

Temujin - cavalry carbines has a range that was about 2/3 or the rifled musket - so these videttes are nerfed to give cavalry an advantages that did not exist at Gettysburg.

[dfair]

Ran a test to see how much damage I could do with the Videttes and the results in the statistics are stunning.

Not all of the CSA casualties were inflicted by Videttes; but about 12 of the CSA batteries were taken by Videttes. These batteries taken by the Videttes are the bottom 12:

Page's Battery 114 men - 57 men lost vs. 142 Union KIA
Rice's Battery 114 men - 114 men lost vs. 87 Union KIA
Johnson's Battery 96 men - 96 men lost vs. 74 Union KIA
McGraw's Battery 89 men - 83 men lost vs. 54 Union KIA
Carrington's Battery 114 men - 114 men lost vs. 87 Union KIA
Crenshaw's Battery 71 men - 71 men lost vs. 53 Union KIA
Fry's Battery 79 men - 65 men lost vs. 36 Union KIA
Marye's Battery 75 men - 75 men lost vs. 36 Union KIA
Green's Battery 60 men - 30 men lost vs. 26 Union KIA
Grandy's Battery 92 men - 92 men lost vs. 23 Union KIA
Reese's Battery 79 men - 52 men lost vs. 23 Union KIA
Tanner's Battery 90 men - 90 men lost vs. 22 Union KIA
Zimmerman's Battery 65 men - 65 men lost vs. 20 Union KIA
Wallace's Battery 67 men - 67 men lost vs. 18 Union KIA
Moore's Battery 90 men - 75 men lost vs. 19 Union KIA
Hurt's Battery 71 men - 71 men lost vs. 12 Union KIA
Brander's Battery 65 men - 65 men lost vs. 9 Union KIA
Garber's Battery 60 men - 60 men lost vs. 9 Union KIA
Law's Battery 80 men - 80 men lost vs. 6 Union KIA
Maurin's Battery 50 men - 50 men lost vs. 3 Union KIA
Carter's Battery 103 men - 103 men lost vs. 2 Union KIA

Bottom line to wipe out the CSA artillery with 1,571 men cost the Uniuon about 850 casualties.

My conclusion is that the AI artillery is not aware of threats, not setting ammunition on canister when it should, and the artillery gets wiped out as a result.

Videttes were not the entire problem; but a significant contribution to the problem.

[ArkangeL]

I played my first multiplayer battle against a player with the rank of Major and I'm only 2nd Lieutenant. My videttes keep harassing his artillery until the time that he only had 2-3 batteries left on the field (poor guy). My Union troops stood their ground with the help of my overwhelming defensive batteries. I just imagined how my opponent felt during those vidette raids, he keep pulling out some of his frontline troops just to protect his batteries.

So, eventually his main force is not at full strength when they attacked my lines... and thats how I won my first battle.

Well, I just hope they come up with a good solution to this "videttes problem" because as of now, Union will always have an advantage in the first battle map.

[CSA Rifles]

A vidette was a mounted scout, usually alone or in a small group, and their duty was to find the enemy and report on their actions and not necessarily to take them under fire....

****
A vidette is a cavalry equivalent of an infantry picket. Pickets would have been out about 500 yards from the main body and, with cavalry individual videttes out maybe another 500 yards from the pickets.

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/videttes-and-skirmishers.96805/

*****

Perhaps they should use the Videttes as they were historically used?
That would solve the problem n the unfairness with them in MP!

I just played a map(When the Armies Approach Gettysburg)SP,
they weren't as aggressive as they were pre 0.97 but.....

There was a 1 group of Videttes with ~150 riders.

They need to fix Videttes n Cavalry to be depicted as they should be
In The Battle Of Gettysburg.
Videttes were not a separate Fighting arm of the cavalry....

[Temper]

^ +1

[Technopiper]

Historically, all the commander see is a blank map. No moving arrows, no enemy locations, not even friendly unit locations. He had to rely on reports from front line commanders, always obscured and skewed, exaggerated or underestimated in the heat of the battle.

Historically, no commander can issue real time commands. Orders were fire-and-forget affairs, travelling at the speed of horses, guaranteed by the messenger's courage and luck, and prone to the front line commander's own interpretation. Clarifications and confirmations were luxuries. You had no way of knowing how they are carried out until too late -- the enemy has took Cemetery Hill.

Historically, no front line units had a good idea of what lied before him. They had to rely on the afore mentioned, not-too-reliable, instructions from higher command. Are there juicy artillery pieces over that hill? Or is it the enemy main force? You never know. Especially when you are travelling at the speed of communication itself.

My point is: when we ponder over realism, unit setup is not the only factor. If a game is fun to play and somehow resembled the Battle, it is doing everything right. I love playing, both with and against, the videttes. They make the game interesting for the player and challenging for opponent. And that is everything I ask for in a game.