Thoughts on the Ending (Major spoilers obviously.)

[BeefoTheBold]

Sooo...

The whole game was about finding an Elixer of Eternal Life that can basically cure any and all diseases.

Now, the scene BEFORE the very last scene shows all of it being thrown into the sea (supposedly). But then the final scene has Majima and Saejima talking about leaving it to the next guy (god help us all...still for the moment that clownish child Ichiban) but then going up to a hospital room where Daigo is talking to someone else who "knows what it is like to be on top".

Naturally, the sign on the door reveals it to be Kiryu's hospital room.

So either RGG's going to find a way to get that Elixer to Kiryu (shouldn't he be either dead or recovered by now if this game takes place about a year after the previous one?) or...

...they're going to use Kiryu to drag in the people who can't stand Ichiban (hello!) to yet again have to buy the next Ichiban game to find out what happens to Kiryu?

On the one hand, I admire RGG's brazenness.

On the other, would you please s*** or get off the damn pot already on whether you're going to fully transition to Ichiban (yuck) or finally go back to Kiryu full time again?

[Bird O' Omens.]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BeefoTheBold:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Bird O' Omens.:

I'll be real, I've never understood why so many of y'all piss yourselves over Ichiban.

It isn't really all that complicated.

Ichiban and LAD7 took a long running series in a completely different direction. That new direction changed up in a pretty big way a decades long formula that some people really liked and were pretty attached to.

Replacing a long running series protagonist is a major turning point, but RGG also layered on a completely new genre of game on top of that, and then added on a major tonal shift on top of THAT.

The result is a series that shares the name of its predecessor, and has a few other things in common, but still is VERY different from what people knew and liked before. Ichiban is basically Patient 0 in all of that. For some people, they like all of the changes and think that what hasn't changed is still similar enough to be enjoyable. For others, it isn't.

He's being asked to step into the shoes of a legend and is a VERY different character archetype. And for some it works and some it doesn't. Not that hard to understand really.

If Kratos is phased out in the next God of War game in favor of a very different main character like, say, Atreus you'll probably see a very similar franchise split.

IMO, CDPR is doing it better with moving from Geralt to Ciri in the Witcher franchise. Enough similarities, both in play style and personality to still be familiar, with enough differences to be fresh and interesting and her own story.

So, y'all cant handle change?

[BeefoTheBold]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Bird O' Omens.:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από BeefoTheBold:

It isn't really all that complicated.

Ichiban and LAD7 took a long running series in a completely different direction. That new direction changed up in a pretty big way a decades long formula that some people really liked and were pretty attached to.

Replacing a long running series protagonist is a major turning point, but RGG also layered on a completely new genre of game on top of that, and then added on a major tonal shift on top of THAT.

The result is a series that shares the name of its predecessor, and has a few other things in common, but still is VERY different from what people knew and liked before. Ichiban is basically Patient 0 in all of that. For some people, they like all of the changes and think that what hasn't changed is still similar enough to be enjoyable. For others, it isn't.

He's being asked to step into the shoes of a legend and is a VERY different character archetype. And for some it works and some it doesn't. Not that hard to understand really.

If Kratos is phased out in the next God of War game in favor of a very different main character like, say, Atreus you'll probably see a very similar franchise split.

IMO, CDPR is doing it better with moving from Geralt to Ciri in the Witcher franchise. Enough similarities, both in play style and personality to still be familiar, with enough differences to be fresh and interesting and her own story.

So, y'all cant handle change?

Mmm. I guess about as well as you handle nuance and attempts at good faith dialog.

[armycat23]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Bird O' Omens.:

I'll be real, I've never understood why so many of y'all piss yourselves over Ichiban.

Nobody is pissing. We just like him
....and some folks can't stand that we actually like a fun character like ichiban instead of not drooling over kiryu, who has the personality of a dry wooden board.

Kiryu is a fighting beast, but hes easily the least interesting character in the whole franchise. Shoot, even npc from side missions have more of a pulse then kiryu.

Kiryu has always been a plot piece to move the story forward and relied upon others to make the story "moving". We like a MC that feels like it's his story and not simply around for the ride.

Shoot, this is why the best parts of Y4 and Y5 were other characters you plsyed....rather than the parts of playing as kiryu.

This is why Majima was the real star of Y0.

Even Yakuza 1 was more of Nishiki's story, rather than it being about Kiryu.

[Rocky McRockerson]

How was 7 and 8 a tonal shift?

[BeefoTheBold]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Rocky McRockerson:

How was 7 and 8 a tonal shift?

Imagine a typical Yakuza game as a mix between silly and deadly serious.

Now imagine a baseline of it being about 50/50 on each side.

Then imagine you crank one side up to 90 and move the other down to about 10. Sure, 7 and 8 still HAVE both silly and deadly serious, but the AMOUNTS of each have been changed dramatically.

And every recipe depends heavily on how much of each ingredient.

Get the amounts of each ingredient right, and you have a delicious meal. Add to much of one ingredient and not enough of another, and it just tastes very different.

[Legato Bluesummers]

They'll never nor should ever move past Kiryu. He makes it all work. Ichiban comes off as a deeply flawed, flanderized, anime protoganist amidst the backdrop. As far as magic rocks go, I mean, c'mon, they're either baiting the audience hard or their committing to it. Bryce was over 100 years old. That's a huge plot hole they never addressed until this game. You have a bunch of 60 year old characters you need to keep around and the magic macguffin falls into your lap. It's hard to see them not exploit it for all its worth.

[AnonTwo]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Rocky McRockerson:

How was 7 and 8 a tonal shift?

The best way I could describe it is it felt like a sendoff to Kiryu. It didn't feel like Ichiban had to be there for any reason other than to set off the plot. Most of the issues with the "main story" were wrapped up before they even wrapped it up, Kiryu handled the fight that would've mattered more to ichiban.

They give Ichiban a "win" in the end, but it's not particularly earned because you aren't really given much reason to feel like you or Ichiban should need to put their necks out for this. If anything it diminishes the meaning behind Y7 when they did the same thing (with Aoki) but it was done much better because even when they were wrong you still understood perfectly well their relation to Ichiban.

So since Ichiban doesn't really have a reason to be there other than the story needs him to be there, he comes off a lot more phoned in because the story wasn't really tailored around him. Like the best parts of Ichiban's story are pretty much up until he leaves Japan.

To be clear, I thought Y7 was very good. And I thought Ichiban in Y7 was very good. I feel like Y8 was them getting cold feet. I love Kiryu, and i'm still happy his story has a resolution, but he definitely made Y8 weaker for it.

I really hope when Y9 comes around, they have a bit more confidence in where the story's direction is going.

edit: I do think I misunderstood the original quote somewhat. I feel like there was issues going from Y7 to Y8, though yeah, I can imagine people would think there's differences between Y6 and Y7 too. I mean that was kindof the point. It was a new generation. The world has to keep moving forward.

[Nameless Gentleman]

Honestly, given everything that Kiryu has been through, especially since the events of the original game, he deserves to live out his final days in peace with Haruka and her son.

I really don't want to see RGG Studios write up increasingly flimsy reasons to keep dragging him out of Morning Glory Orphanage just to keep him around in the games, especially since there have been multiple points in the series where his story should have ended, but didn't.

[BeefoTheBold]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από AnonTwo:

I really hope when Y9 comes around, they have a bit more confidence in where the story's direction is going.

All of your post is really good so I hope you don't mind me zeroing in on this bit of it, but I really do think that a lot of other stuff in recent games is a symptom of this.

RGG has stated publicly the direction that they want to go, but their actions haven't indicated that they're all-in yet. They haven't shown their commitment and trust in the new direction and therefore kind of keep halfway doing it...halfway holding onto Kiryu.

They're going to piss some people off no matter what they choose so they keep kicking the can down the road and avoiding the choice.

I ended my original post that started this thread stating that they really need to "**** or get off the pot" and I maintain that stance. My preferences in order are:

1. Go back to Kiryu for at least another game or two. (They've shown that Majima at 60 can carry a game, and introduced the possibility of longevity extenders with the magic rocks of this game.) Use these games to actually introduce and develop a new main protagonist ala Ciri from the Witcher games.

2. Retire Kiryu, but don't kill him. That man has EARNED a happy ending...not a glorious death. What I think they really have messed up in recent games is not using the writing in a way that both writes him out irrevocably going forward, but also not killing him.

They simply haven't made a choice. They said that they were going to a new character in LAD7, and then turned right back around and made Kiryu a super important part of LAD7. Then they made him the star of Gaiden. And then they made him the most important part of LAD8. And then they made him the behind-the-scenes focus of THIS GAME.

While publicly saying "Ichiban is teh future mah dudes!"

All of this shows a total inability to move on from Kiryu, but an unwillingness to fully just go back to him. Write him the happy ending he deserves if you're not going to...

3. Kill him. But use killing him as a way to pivot to a much better new protagonist than Ichiban. Yuta in China for example with his Hirose family bros with him and his connections to Kiryu's old pals in the Japanese Yakuza in a pinch.

4. Kill him, and make Ichiban the protagonist with no more half-***ing it.

Not my preference because I'm not an Ichi fan, but it is better than the alternative to keep endless paralysis.