Gryphon balance discussion

[Cam Devran]

ok so let's go i will start you guys chip in your views. I like to go with comparables since balance works between different characters. TL;DR at the bottom!

SO.. the main things that people go for about gryph are;
1. Kick is fast

2. Kick damage is high

3. Neutral bash is fast and safe

4. Stam costs are too low

5. Side dodge attack has too much i-frames and too strong


My views;
1. Kick is 500ms so it's on the faster side of bashes 500ms is the peak speed for them. So the kick is pretty much unreactable.
YET! the role that the kick plays is to put 50-50 chain pressure. Is it going to be the KICK or the TRACKING LIGHT? Making it 600 puts it on the reactable side according to data.

But anyway let's imagine that we slow the kick down to 600ms and you can react to the orange like the most of the community. Gryph double light and goes to his kick or light, you just wait to see the orange to dodge. Or wait for the light to come out and block/parry. No 50-50 pressure no reason to kick anyone.

Reaction/Punishes to similar chains;
-BP has a similar situation with SHIELD BASH or TRACKING HEAVY. BP's chain bash cannot be punished and he can cancel the tracking heavy even if he gets parried he gives a LIGHT.

-Shaolin has a KICK or TRACKING HEAVY 50-50. His kick can be punished with a GB and his tracking heavy can be feinted or gives a LIGHT on parry.

**BOTH CHARACTERS FORCE A READ ON THEIR CHAIN PRESSURE WITH GRYPH WITH EXACT SAME RULES IN TERMS OF SPEED**

-Gryph is a KICK or TRACKING LIGHT. None can be cancelled both is full commitment attacks. Kick gets GB punished for a HEAVY, light gets parry punished for a HEAVY

-My current issue with the mix-up is that it also has a HA heavy option with amazing tracking. I would be happy to see the heavy option to be removed and make it a true 50-50

TL;DR The mix-up is riskier and has the same speed with the similar ones.

2. Kick damage is 28. Again lets compare to other 50-50s with exact same logic in mind.

-BP: Bash gives 14 damage. Yet his tracking option gives 28 damage. (again, the punish options for BP is A) nothing, B) light attack)

-Shaolin: Bash gives 14 damage. Yet his tracking option gives 28 damage.

-Gryph: Bash gives 28 damage. Yet his tracking option gives 14 damage.

For me the damage swap legit means nothing since the logic behind the pressure is that you have to choose an option not react on it. (we have discussed reaction means you can just wait and negate all of his offence) And the best part is that on correct read you get a heavy punish both ways

3. Neutral bash is safer than i prefer. But it is a general issue since tiandi has the same move. For me there are 2 options to make it better. A) make the follow-up light come from a single direction no matter what B) don't allow bash to link to a heavy

4. Stam costs are fine imo but it is highly debatable so i will leave it to you guys.

5. Yes. The same issue with kensei. It is on the reactable side yet it is a very good panic button. My solution would be to either slow it down by 100ms or put some GB frames to the start-up similar to tiandi and JJ.


TL;DR
1 and 2. Kick damage and speed is fine since it is not a reaction based move. You legit go blue pill or red pill. Guess correct get a heavy as a reward. Guess wrong; red pill = 28 damage blue pill = 14 damage. Same with BP , same with Shaolin only with them blue = 28 red = 14

3. Neutral bash needs a slight tweak to make it a little riskier and not a neutral spam to open eventually tool.

4. Stam is fine for me but it is a subjective issue.

5. Dodge attack needs a risk factor either with speed reduc for easier parry or GB frames on the start-up

[SammyBuddy]

this game is ♥♥♥♥

[Gaser]

A 500ms follow up bash ain’t really considered unreactable, for gryphon it’s just the amount of options he has that make it unreactable.


Slowing the dodge attack by 100ms won’t fix any issues, I don’t have the frame data at hand right now but as far as I’m aware Kensei dodge attack is 800ms and still way to effective in what it does.


I personally only want to see major changes to his feats and some smaller dmg changes, 2 less dmg on his heavy after kick and the making the top heavy the same dmg then the sides because there ain’t really a reason for it to be higher.

On anything else I’m not quite sure at the moment and I would rather take my time before making any suggestions.

[Gaser]

Originally posted by 76561198078843848:

this game is ♥♥♥♥

Man you sure provide a lot of meaningful input and are not a waste of space that could be used for something meaningful instead.

[Dr.Guster]

Please tell me what other 500ms bash does that much dmg

[Gaser]

Originally posted by Dr.Guster:

Please tell me what other 500ms bash does that much dmg

Non.

Tho Valks sweep that is 600ms does almost the same dmg and can’t be punished on reaction and requires a read which will open you up to a GB.

You can’t really use that argument in my opinion, seeing how Gryphon is clearly based around the same idea as valk.

[Cam Devran]

Originally posted by Dr.Guster:

Please tell me what other 500ms bash does that much dmg

There is only 2 bashes that can be considered similar (in chain/500ms/50-50 pressure) those are, as listed above, BP and Shaolin. (otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges) BP either tracks you for 28 damage or bashes you for 14, exact same with shaolin. The only difference with gryph is that it tracks you for 14 or bashes you for 28. You are supposed to choose one of them before it comes.

Let me put it like this.
>Imagine we are playing a game.
>In one of my hands there is a jelly. I close my hands and make you guess which one has the jelly.

IMAGINE I AM BP
>You can see on my right hand i have a knuckleduster. So if you guess wrong i will either punch you with the knuckleduster or with my bare fist.

IMAGINE I AM SHAOLIN
>Same situation.

IMAGINE I AM GRYPH
>Same situation but the knuckleduster is in my left hand.

[A motivated Guy]

For me it just feels like he has too many fast options that hit hard and barely drain his stamina.

[Gaser]

Originally posted by Anakin✿:

For me it just feels like he has too many fast options that hit hard and barely drain his stamina.

The only really thing that hits harder is his kick with 28 dmg, thinking 26 would be fine.

The rest of the dmg is rather in line with the rest.

[Vajrrre]

never seen so unbalanced hero like gryphon.

[Fed Groomer (Get that Glowussy)]

Originally posted by Cam Devran:

ok so let's go i will start you guys chip in your views. I like to go with comparables since balance works between different characters. TL;DR at the bottom!

SO.. the main things that people go for about gryph are;
1. Kick is fast

2. Kick damage is high

3. Neutral bash is fast and safe

4. Stam costs are too low

5. Side dodge attack has too much i-frames and too strong


My views;
1. Kick is 500ms so it's on the faster side of bashes 500ms is the peak speed for them. So the kick is pretty much unreactable.
YET! the role that the kick plays is to put 50-50 chain pressure. Is it going to be the KICK or the TRACKING LIGHT? Making it 600 puts it on the reactable side according to data.

But anyway let's imagine that we slow the kick down to 600ms and you can react to the orange like the most of the community. Gryph double light and goes to his kick or light, you just wait to see the orange to dodge. Or wait for the light to come out and block/parry. No 50-50 pressure no reason to kick anyone.

Reaction/Punishes to similar chains;
-BP has a similar situation with SHIELD BASH or TRACKING HEAVY. BP's chain bash cannot be punished and he can cancel the tracking heavy even if he gets parried he gives a LIGHT.

-Shaolin has a KICK or TRACKING HEAVY 50-50. His kick can be punished with a GB and his tracking heavy can be feinted or gives a LIGHT on parry.

**BOTH CHARACTERS FORCE A READ ON THEIR CHAIN PRESSURE WITH GRYPH WITH EXACT SAME RULES IN TERMS OF SPEED**

-Gryph is a KICK or TRACKING LIGHT. None can be cancelled both is full commitment attacks. Kick gets GB punished for a HEAVY, light gets parry punished for a HEAVY

-My current issue with the mix-up is that it also has a HA heavy option with amazing tracking. I would be happy to see the heavy option to be removed and make it a true 50-50

TL;DR The mix-up is riskier and has the same speed with the similar ones.

2. Kick damage is 28. Again lets compare to other 50-50s with exact same logic in mind.

-BP: Bash gives 14 damage. Yet his tracking option gives 28 damage. (again, the punish options for BP is A) nothing, B) light attack)

-Shaolin: Bash gives 14 damage. Yet his tracking option gives 28 damage.

-Gryph: Bash gives 28 damage. Yet his tracking option gives 14 damage.

For me the damage swap legit means nothing since the logic behind the pressure is that you have to choose an option not react on it. (we have discussed reaction means you can just wait and negate all of his offence) And the best part is that on correct read you get a heavy punish both ways

3. Neutral bash is safer than i prefer. But it is a general issue since tiandi has the same move. For me there are 2 options to make it better. A) make the follow-up light come from a single direction no matter what B) don't allow bash to link to a heavy

4. Stam costs are fine imo but it is highly debatable so i will leave it to you guys.

5. Yes. The same issue with kensei. It is on the reactable side yet it is a very good panic button. My solution would be to either slow it down by 100ms or put some GB frames to the start-up similar to tiandi and JJ.


TL;DR
1 and 2. Kick damage and speed is fine since it is not a reaction based move. You legit go blue pill or red pill. Guess correct get a heavy as a reward. Guess wrong; red pill = 28 damage blue pill = 14 damage. Same with BP , same with Shaolin only with them blue = 28 red = 14

3. Neutral bash needs a slight tweak to make it a little riskier and not a neutral spam to open eventually tool.

4. Stam is fine for me but it is a subjective issue.

5. Dodge attack needs a risk factor either with speed reduc for easier parry or GB frames on the start-up

just make the kick a 700ms move that can feint gb and sf light so it isn't just an easy os for dodges. it isn't " Guess wrong; red pill = 28 damage blue pill = 14 damage. Same with BP , same with Shaolin only with them blue = 28 red = 14" because that's being mentally reductive and assuming they are comparable. Compare the 2 fully and bp has his damages in line with their speeds, a standard we just had added to the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game (14/14/28/24) and the new guy is (14/30/28/25). Don't waste anyones time talking about mixups being comparable if your to lazy to even list out the options. let alone understand the interactions (both bash and light covered on one timing dodge on bp, making it just a read of dodge or wait without it frontloading an overtuned bash confirm, which is significantly weaker than gryphons where feint gb and letting a heavy with ha go expand the options and mixup potential of having stronger tools in other circumstances like characters lacking a dodge attack, or trading with a heavy if attempting to use the dodge attack)
this kick has more options than either bp or shao. and bp having a heavy that deals 28 damage doesn't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mean ♥♥♥♥ for how much damage a 500ms bash does. The move doesn't need 0 telegraphing to be unreactable, and morons like freeze are just promoting bad inconsistent design by propping this garbage up as good.

the push bash is fine, reactable bashes shouldnt be as heavily punished as unreactable ones

The dodge was always a ♥♥♥♥ design. Iframes should come at the cost of gb immunity, and gb immunity should be higher on lower iframe moves that have heavy parry punishes tied to them already, this move is just baby garbage that protects you from any committed offense that isnt blue. It's much to easy to exploit and really doesnt have a place on a character that already has a zone and such (only 2 characters potentially could have this and not be cancer, nux and raider, and it would be fine dude to their lacking defensive options atm)

Originally posted by Gaser:

Originally posted by Dr.Guster:

Please tell me what other 500ms bash does that much dmg

Non.

Tho Valks sweep that is 600ms does almost the same dmg and can’t be punished on reaction and requires a read which will open you up to a GB.

You can’t really use that argument in my opinion, seeing how Gryphon is clearly based around the same idea as valk.

Are you that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dense that you just ignore what he said? You just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ drooled out the first dumb thing you thought even tho it doesn't apply.

[Gaser]

Originally posted by Dying Alone:

Are you that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dense that you just ignore what he said? You just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ drooled out the first dumb thing you thought even tho it doesn't apply.

We already had this discusion and I said that we two wont land on the same opinion and I pretty much peacefully told you that.

I dont see why you insult me now?


Its in my opinion pretty much true what I said.

Both are combo finishing bashes with simliar dmg.

Valks one is 100ms slower tho not punishable by reaction and pretty much opens up the enemy to get GBed.

Gryphon is 500ms but has a full second of recovery, the move itself aint unreactable but the options make it that.

They pretty simliar in my opinion, tho I do admit that Gryphons works better.

Again Im kind of the opinion that valk should recive a buff to her combo finisher mix up to get it on gryphons level.

[ONISAIBOT]

Gryphon is fine, it's just half of the cast that isn't.

[JKArtorias]

I came back to the game and i despise Gryphon with every bone in my body. That's the 3rd Knight in a row that's a disappointment and feeding into my hatred of the devs. Overpowered and ♥♥♥♥♥♥ boring like every other Knight.

Hell it's the 2nd Knight in a row with good fashion but DUDE, ITS SO ♥♥♥♥♥♥ STUPID.

[Mysath]

Originally posted by God Of Conquest:

I came back to the game and i despise Gryphon with every bone in my body. That's the 3rd Knight in a row that's a disappointment and feeding into my hatred of the devs. Overpowered and ♥♥♥♥♥♥ boring like every other Knight.

Hell it's the 2nd Knight in a row with good fashion but DUDE, ITS SO ♥♥♥♥♥♥ STUPID.

good fashion? It's boring as ♥♥♥♥

[Robert Zerker]

I met a lot of Gryphons, and only a select few seemed to know how to play him well. The rest was 'Imagonnakicktillmewins' who would rarely adapt and switch tactic against people able to 'read' and punish them. So they made horrible revenge feeding team-mates and, not very interresting enemies to fight.

I just wonder why :

A while ago, Ubi nerfed the hell out of JJ's mass-healing, because it was, indeed, very strong and a mean to "flip" any team fights if not the match entirely.

And then, here's this Gryphon guy with so much healing potential (spread accross several feats,ok) he can actually "flip" any team fights if not the match...