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Free dodging ninja with a giant 3 meters sword looks idiotic. Not to mention him ending you in 3 hits that you have to guess.
Maybe on the top of food chain, where superhumans fight against scripters, his fast crushing lights mean nothing, as well as his offensive superior lights. But a bit lower he feels safe using crushers on any red indicator.
Also, is the kick -> grab that bad? They're reactable as is and remain so in this concept.
Can you be more specific on what you don't like?
On the other hand, some moves are tuned down in my concept. Point in case: Heavy Finisher in this concept is the same damage, but +100ms slower (changed from 600ms to 700ms) and costs +3 Stamina (changed from 12 to 15). This change is made because Highlander's Heavy Finishers are unreasonably good, as is.
You are correct that I want to give him an Undodgeable side dodge-attack with soft feint. That's a 50/50; quite similar to what other characters have. Pirate has an Unblockable forward dodge-attack that can be soft-feinted into GB. Raider can soft-feint any Heavy or Zone into GB. Jiangjun can soft-feint his dodge attack into a light and his Unblockable Heavy Finishers into GB. Those are all comparative moves.
Finally, you are also correct that I want to give him a clone of Aramusha's Blade Blockade form OF. Please take note that it's already considered a balanced move, but the simple fact that OF has no guard automatically makes the proposed Highlander version (Greatsword Sweep) inferior. Moreover, it automatically drops him back to DF.
The reason for this addition is that OF is very problematic in that it has no defensive options, at all. To remedy this without changing the guardless design of OF, a couple of "active defense" options were suggested.
I can understand giving him faster opener heavy to allow him to throw heavy in gb, but already his entire kit is either an unblockable, or a bash that confirms an unblockable. I don't really think that allowing him to land a heavy every time he does something is good. Like in hito's case - she can land a heavy, but she her unblockables and bashes are slow af.
For OS dodge - it depends on whether or not you want to make it gb vulnerable on start up. If it will be gb'able then I doubt it will help him that much. If not - enemies will be forced to feint to neutral all the time, as they risk getting stance'd or dodged. Only characters with dodge recoveries wil be able to maintain their pressure. I think you gotta choose one of defensive moves, not just give him everything at once.
Last thing - I forgot the name of this move, when he dodges forward and then he can cancel or flow into side heavy. You proposed to make it either 30dmg top or unreactable 15dmg side. I'm not familliar with his current frame data, but I it will just allow him to constantly trade with opponent's openers, just do this move when you see indicator and trade hits, as he has really fast HA.
I don't think that you proposed a good rework. Will it make character strong? Absolutely. Will it make him strong bcuz you gave him one of the best defensive options in OS and made his offense in DS unreactable? Most likely
Perhaps you missed this in my wall of text:
In the suggested concept, Formorian Kick only confirms Chain Light; *not* OF Heavy (Balor's Might), as current.
That is, kick become a bash like any other hero has, confirming light attackonly. So this is a non-issue.
I'm not sure I get what your talking about. The proposed OF dodge attack behaves just like Zhanhu's, just scaled up slightly for being slower and coming out of guardless OF.
It has a Deflect component to add a measure of "active defense", but lots of heroes have similar dodge attacks with Deflects.
Otherwise, it has all the same attributes of any dodge attack. Why wouldn't it?
Currently, all three directions for Celtic Curse are 24 damage. So, he can already trade, as such. But it's not advantageous for him to do so either now or under the proposed concept. He's a glass cannon with only 125 HP, he can't trade effectively.
Moreover, it's a move that's only good at low levels. Every direction is reactable and the move is useless if your opponent is even moderately good.
The proposed concept slows the vanilla top heavy and makes it hit harder, but seriously reduces the damage of the sides. The idea is to force the Highlander and his opponent to commit via read (it's a 33/33/33).
It's no different than Raider's Heavy/Zone soft-feints into Top Light or GB, except for being practically slower (due to the startup time).
I think maybe you misread or skipped a lot of important details.
His DF is hardly unreactable, please make sure to read carefully. His OF gets an inferior version of a move that is already well accepted as balanced because, as is, OF is ridiculously vulnerable to everything; it literally has no guard and can't anti-GB.
For his OS dodge I wanted to know if you want to make it gb vulnerable or not.
If it can be gb'ed, like JJ's or Tiandi's, then I'm not sure how it can be used other than dodging bashes. iirc HL can already dodge the bash and either parry the chain light or go for his kick. I think that his current dodge into kick seems stronger.
However, if you want to make his dodge like kensei's or pirate immune to gb, then it is too strong to be feintable. It is even too strong to be undodgeable. You can't really throw any attack as he has 3 different moves to counter it, and if you correctly predict his dodge - only assasins will be able to properly punish it with deflect, 90% of the roster will only be able to land a single light.
For Celtic Curse, I would rather keep all unreactable moves to OS only. If we make his OS even stronger and give it some defensive moves, then opponents should be rewarded for forcing HL go back to DS.
Ok, no worries.
In current, he can only kick in OF (700ms). He can dodge first, but that effectively makes his kick 900ms. That's super slow. Everyone with hands *should* be able to deal with it in almost every situation.
As far as I know, all dodge attacks can be GBed. It just depends on timing. I should add that it is not my intention to make a either the DF or OF dodge attacks immune to GB. They ought to follow standard dodge-attack rules.
They are just new tools for him to deal with current-game mechanics.
I get what you're saying, but that's not the design philosophy the devs have been pushing. They are creating the game as a read-based game. Transforming Celtic Curse as I suggested redefines it as a read-based move. Leaving it reactable just leaves it dead and useless.
As for OF, it sucks. No one should be staying in OF because it's too vulnerable and the moves are generally undertuned. Just giving it the two "actives defense" options I suggested would help immensely.
The suggested Greatsword Sweep would drop Highlander back to DF, anyway. That is, to use it, you'd have to exit OF and find an opportunity to transition back to OF to use that move it again.
Not quite, unfeintable dodge attacks can only be gb'ed before you actually start the attack. If you manage to catch them in gb, that means that they were previously hit by a heavy hitstun and you caught their neutral dodge before thay started the dodge attack. That applies to every dodge with some exceptions.
JJ and Tiandi however can indeed be gb'ed, it's a trade off for being able to feint it. Also their dodges have extended timings.
Other exception is Zhanhu, but he can choose the direction of the dodge and he has recovery cancel.
As for undodgeable property, only 2 dodge attacks have it - Orochi and Berserk, both count as light parry. The reason is simple - if it count as heavy parry (let alone it will be feintable), only assasins will be able to properly punish it thanks to deflect, every other character will only be able to land one single light.
While devs indeed make it read-based introducing barely punishable offense, I can't think of any character that have both great defense and unreactable 33-move from neutral. Raider does not have any HA on his openers, and his 33\33\33 is 24\24\12, and unreactable aprt comes from 1 fixed direction. They way you proposed reminds me of Aramusha, but with HA included and available from neutral.
I should probably also add this - I do not have much experience as HL, but I did face some pretty good HLs before. So I'm speaking as someone who will theoratically have to fight against HL. So I want to point out some incredible safe and damaging moves, that can be easily abused
I'm still not clear what you're getting at. The suggested concept is to make his kick function like every cast-standard bash, dodge forward -> GB = kick. Speed is 500ms, like most dodge-bashes. If something can outmaneuver that, it can outmaneuver many of the cast. So, that's not a problem specific to this rework.
First, you're now talking about general game mechanics, not something specific to the suggested rework. There's no issue here. As I said, the suggestion isn't to make them follow different rules. Whatever those rules might be, the suggested dodge attacks follow them. Same as any other hero.
Second, Tiandi also has a dodge attack that is undodgeable.
It seems like the problems you have are with the mechanics of the game, not the rework itself.
No, Raider doesn't have HA on his 33/33/33, but they are all effectively chain starters and one is GB, all unreactable. That's quite advantageous. Still better than the proposed changes to Celtic Curse.
Here's the facts:
If Celtic Curse is left reactable, it useless. If it's made unreactable, you can't leave the damage as is (24) for all sides, it's too high. But if you make it lower, no one will both with it over Heavy Opener. How do you get around that? Split the damage values, as suggested.
It's either that or discard the move entirely.
I'm talking about general mechanics, your proposed dodge attack is out of the general rule. If dodge is feintable - it must have extended gb vulnerability. How often do you see JJ use his dodge attack against simple unblockable? Not only he can be caught in gb, but if his opponent lets the ub fly - opponent can recover fast enough to block the dodge attack.
If the dodge can't be feinted, then it does not have gb vulnerability, working exactly as Aramusha's or Kensei's. However, their dodges deal pretty low damage and they are not undodgeable. If you're playing as character without deflect, you can dodge the attack and do a bash or whatever you have in your kit, usually it means that you end their chain, deal a bit higher dmg than light and even deal some stamina damage. It is kinda part of the reason why pirate's defense is so good - you can't punish her dodge attack by anything other than 12dmg light.
Now, undodgeable dodge attacks. All of them count as light parry and can't be feinted.
Honestly, the dodge attack that you proposed have all the properties of every dodge attack in the game. It is stupidly OP. HL can theoratically just do a dodge attack and feint it against every single attack in the game, and it will not be possible to catch him or punish.
here's the thing - the change that you proposed is fine on it's own, a better version of Aramusha's chain attack. But if you combine it with all the other changes - that what I call too much.
Additionally, I hope that you at least will make non-refintable. Bcuz otherwise it's gonna be a free damage. Most of the characters will be forced to guess if he's gonna let the top heavy go, even if they correct predict that he will soft-feint it they still gamble if he's gonna throw it from left or right, and even then HL can throw gb instead. And let's say that you read HL correctly - you get 12 dmg cuz all of that was for a single heavy parry. Just imagine if you gave orochi's forward dodge heavy hyper armor, it is not gonna be fun fighting against. You want to make it somehwat balanced - Top heavy soft feint into unreactable side light from fixed direction. If you want to keep the HA - we make the move unfeintable.
Ok, clearer now. Perhaps his kick can now catch *some* high-recovery moves, but even that is inconsistent. Also, *if* you catch those moves you can punish with 30 damage heavy, but *only* from OF.
The proposed change both reduces his possible punish to a light, makes it more cast-standard, and makes it more versatile and useful (as it becomes an opener-type move).
This is not controversial, it just makes it function like pretty much any cast-standard dodge-bash. So, there really is nothing here to complain about.
Except it's slow and has no HA. Just Light Attack and you'll stop the whole thing and/or stuff the GB. It's not actually that hard to deal with.
It's intended to be a punish for those people that try to dodge attack over and over. Stop dodging and it won't be problematic.
Except it doesn't chain. So it's still not on level with either Aramusha's Top Heavy Finisher or any of Raider's Heavy/Zone 33/33/33s.
I could go for making the side-cancels Light Parries, though. That does seem reasonable.
But, yeah, that's the idea of a read only move. Vanilla overhand is high-damage, so people wanna go for it, but then everyone guesses that's what's coming, so it stops working. Then they go for the side cancels, and people predict that they will because the top doesn't get through. That's kinda the point.
But if it has no HA, it just won't work, because people can simply Light Attack and drop you out of it.
You sill haven't told me it's properties. Is it gonna have i-frames? Do you want to make it simillar to JJ or to Kensei's dodge speed wise?
Tiandi's dodge-lights are undodgeable, but they have almost no i-frames and can't be feinted, so these dodges are mainly used for crashing counters. You can barely dodge a bash with it, it's gonna hit you unless you delay the attack itself.
While your proposed dodge have no HA, it has i-frames instead. If you want to make it as slow as JJ - it has tons of i-frames. I dunno what else can I say, just imagine that JJ's dodge has suddenly became immune to gb and is now undodgeable, how on earth are you gonna win any fight against him, it is basically a legal option select that covers every single move from the opponent and can't be countered at all.
Well it allows HL to enter the OS, which is now much safer and has plenty of defensive options, as you proposed. So not only opponent will take 15 damage, but most likely he will not be able to interrupt HL's next move with light (it definitely seems that you propose a heavy hitstun for all Celtic curse attacks), so now he is forced to deal with follow-up.
When I try to imagine his new offensive stance, it just seems like you want to make an Aramusha, who will be throing unblockables instead of regular heavies, can still blockade dodge attacks, and on top of that has an even better dodge attack, that is undodgeable, has better i-frame count and can be feinted. Current aramusha is already an S tier duelist, don't you see it's a bit too much to improve this kit even further?