Hito lvl 1 bash should only guarante a light

[Serimner1]

Title

[Hans Showdown]

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Publicado originalmente por Gopnik Possum:

Welcome to online gaming, where players will defend broken ♥♥♥♥ because they can win with the aforementioned broken ♥♥♥♥.

Yea exactly. And that's why we need to be more vocal about it before these braindead players and their heroes turn this game into braindead fighting game. Like how everyone called out gryphon as monkey brain because he was ez win hero and how UBI balanced him. it's just that Shugo and Hito aren't new heroes so their broken ♥♥♥♥ doesn't get enough attention and so these braindead players are having some good time with them.

still...if you are such a good player you should be able to counter hito and shugo. yeah i admit it's no fun to play against them, but it's not impossible. most hitos feint their kick into gb, and also hebys into gb. boom just light into it for 1-3 times and most will channel the full heby or refuse to kick feint you. 2 moves countered. yay. depends on the player though.

shugo yeah...stay on mid-long range and most of his moves wont hit you/ you can react way better to them. dont throw mindless attacks like a light spamming nobushi (THE worst kind of players imo. poke and then run, and after they get crushed by a berserker they run into the forums with a: "HYPERARMOR AND DEFLECTS ARE TOO OP, i can't lightspam." ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ :'D ) and then profit.

[Hans Showdown]

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

Publicado originalmente por Toasty Beacon:

no. only with the feat that it does.

i guess shugokis state now is the result of all the players that were not able to adapt after 5 years and simply backdodge his heavy into hug 50/50 mixup. his hug was like the easiest to dodge move in the game...yet 80% off all hugs thrown out hit. there were tons of videos how easy he was to conter....
well, now shugo is able to punish/ follow up and actually do something. The problem is not Ubi, it's the playerbase that refuses to adapt or improve their play.

As an extreme example:
i regularily run into a rep 750+ dude who is playing like an absolute beginner. it hurts me to see a rep 70 conq not beeing able to read his oponent/ not beeing able to use the slightest of conqs movesets. he is basically stuck in the: i throw lights until i have no stamina play/ i get lightparried and run or until i get blocked...etc. no softfeints, no baits nothing. and after every match he complains that the hero that crushed him is overpowered blablabla.

i'm not saying that all of the playerbase is that ignorant, but a big part of it is, and they are the loudest, so ubi changes things to please them.


SO: if you want to counter "bash heros" READ your enemy. try to get out when they do certain stuff and then ACT the way to counter it.

conditioning your enemy into certain moves/ knowing what your opponent is doing, is the way to win. and after that you can win with every hero in the game. not easily ofc, but you can.


(everybody was crying about shugos light hyperarmor. but what is with Kensei and Hito? they got Hype on light aswell :v <-- offtopic, just wondering)

I agree with all you wrote but about hyper armor lights, shugo could use them as option selects. Light and you'll be safe, but in the case of kense and hito these hyper armor lights are finisher lights which can only be used in some situations. Especially hitokiri's light is so risky to use because you can easly dodge and gb it.

aah thanks for the clearification. yeah dunno i never hat problems with shugos lights so i was like: why the heck is everybody so outraged by them. :'D

[Kritix]

Let me explain why Shugo is indeed too broken. His 533ms dodge bash is delayable and has iframes. Deals dmg and stops all ongoing offense. This is already good enough. But he can also do heavy right after it which has HA so it's very safe and unpunishable except from heroes that have fast dodge attacks or side dodge bashes. And there are a lot of heroes that doesn't have this yet so he has very safe defense where he CAN IMMEDIATELY START his pressure. His feats are not in the balanced tier too. Smoke bomb and his braindead tier 4 that last 45 secs. Oh did I mention about how he can run around the map faster than shinobi? And he's a heavy type with largest effective HP because of already high HP pool and defensive perks like bastion so having such safe defense where he can immediately start his insane pressure is braindead and OP. It's like UBI really just put all the OP ideas into him because he was so weak before. And if you think Shugo is not braindead and brokenly overtuned, try to find a tournament match without Shugo, he is almost like must pick in any tournament match now.

[Hans Showdown]

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Let me explain why Shugo is indeed too broken. His 533ms dodge bash is delayable and has iframes. Deals dmg and stops all ongoing offense. This is already good enough. But he can also do heavy right after it which has HA so it's very safe and unpunishable except from heroes that have fast dodge attacks or side dodge bashes. And there are a lot of heroes that doesn't have this yet so he has very safe defense where he CAN IMMEDIATELY START his pressure. His feats are not in the normal tier too. Smoke bomb and his braindead tier 4 that last 45 secs. Oh did I mention about how he can run around the map faster than shinobi? And he's a heavy type with largest effective HP because of already high HP pool and defensive perks like bastion so having such safe defense where he can immediately start his insane pressure is braindead and OP. It's like UBI really just put all the OP ideas into him because he was so weak before. And if you think Shugo is not braindead and brokenly overtuned, try to find a tournament match without Shugo, he is almost like must pick in any tournament match now.

well...he is fast. yeah. nice. won't help him winning in a 1v1 :'D

you can dodge his dodge bash. parry his heavy. and beat him up. or hyperarmor through his heavy, dodge his bash and beat him up. still depends on the player yeah, but read is everything. like i said.

smokebomb is strong, still you can kill people in the bomb, even without lockon (i've done this several times) or --->just move out of it<--- if you can, maybe counter smoke yourself. OR die and respawn: and kill him when he has no feats ready. also smokebomb is the samurai trademark, like fireflask is for vikings or bombs for knights. annoying and maybe the strongest feat in the game. but nothing, that new or unknown.

his knockdown feat is annoying yeah...but honestly i dislike Oathbreaker from BP way more. also you can parry his heavys. so dunno :v it sucks in a gank. yeah.

well he is a fat heavy unicorn, ofc he can tank nearly anything. but he is extremely weak against multiple enemies (given that they know how to gank properly.) or people who keep their distance to him <-- that's my experience. dunno why, but most time when i play pk i love to have a shugo as my enemie so much man to stab into.

[Oath Ooze Beer]

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Let me explain why Shugo is indeed too broken. His 533ms dodge bash is delayable and has iframes. Deals dmg and stops all ongoing offense. This is already good enough. But he can also do heavy right after it which has HA so it's very safe and unpunishable except from heroes that have fast dodge attacks or side dodge bashes. And there are a lot of heroes that doesn't have this yet so he has very safe defense where he CAN IMMEDIATELY START his pressure. His feats are not in the balanced tier too. Smoke bomb and his braindead tier 4 that last 45 secs. Oh did I mention about how he can run around the map faster than shinobi? And he's a heavy type with largest effective HP because of already high HP pool and defensive perks like bastion so having such safe defense where he can immediately start his insane pressure is braindead and OP. It's like UBI really just put all the OP ideas into him because he was so weak before. And if you think Shugo is not braindead and brokenly overtuned, try to find a tournament match without Shugo, he is almost like must pick in any tournament match now.

Just tell me any hero thst cant punish shugos headbutt except warlord and cent because you said lots of heroes can't punish it which is incorrect.

[Hans Showdown]

also a good wa to counter shugoki in 4v4 is: leave him to die of boredom on his point and hold the other 2 :v

im duel he is like zero threat. still depends on the player. but what can he do: he can dodge bash, light once and bash, hug without protection or play mindgames with his Heavy charge and bash. well...pretty much nothing. oh and he can forward dodge heavy.

just determine what type of player the enemie is and take away their options.

if he is not able to bash you he will most likely stop with it in the second round, or keeps doing it and gets punished.

if his charged heavy does not hit/ get's parried, he will stop using it and rather feint into gb.
next move gone.

just drive him into the moveset you want and finish him. yeah i know big talk and stuff: but that's how it works in theory. and the best thing is: you can do this with every hero. even the "braindead" ones.

[Oath Ooze Beer]

Publicado originalmente por Toasty Beacon:

also a good wa to counter shugoki in 4v4 is: leave him to die of boredom on his point and hold the other 2 :v

im duel he is like zero threat. still depends on the player. but what can he do: he can dodge bash, light once and bash, hug without protection or play mindgames with his Heavy charge and bash. well...pretty much nothing. oh and he can forward dodge heavy.

just determine what type of player the enemie is and take away their options.

if he is not able to bash you he will most likely stop with it in the second round, or keeps doing it and gets punished.

if his charged heavy does not hit/ get's parried, he will stop using it and rather feint into gb.
next move gone.

just drive him into the moveset you want and finish him. yeah i know big talk and stuff: but that's how it works in theory. and the best thing is: you can do this with every hero. even the "braindead" ones.

You explained it very well, I agree with all really.

[Hans Showdown]

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Let me explain why Shugo is indeed too broken. His 533ms dodge bash is delayable and has iframes. Deals dmg and stops all ongoing offense. This is already good enough. But he can also do heavy right after it which has HA so it's very safe and unpunishable except from heroes that have fast dodge attacks or side dodge bashes. And there are a lot of heroes that doesn't have this yet so he has very safe defense where he CAN IMMEDIATELY START his pressure. His feats are not in the balanced tier too. Smoke bomb and his braindead tier 4 that last 45 secs. Oh did I mention about how he can run around the map faster than shinobi? And he's a heavy type with largest effective HP because of already high HP pool and defensive perks like bastion so having such safe defense where he can immediately start his insane pressure is braindead and OP. It's like UBI really just put all the OP ideas into him because he was so weak before. And if you think Shugo is not braindead and brokenly overtuned, try to find a tournament match without Shugo, he is almost like must pick in any tournament match now.

Just tell me any hero thst cant punish shugos headbutt except warlord and cent because you said lots of heroes can't punish it which is incorrect.

hmmm, i can't think of one. :v srsly i am curious, too.

warden can bash
pk can dodge heby
bp can flip
gryphon can dodge heby
conq can dodge bash
glad same
warmommy dodge heby
LB dodge shob

kensei same
orochi dodge light
shinobi dodge dodge kick flip kick gb bleedpunish
hito doge heby
nobu stance
shugo doge bash
aramusha dodge heby or light i dunno
kyoshin dodge heby

raider storming tap
berserker dodge attack
valk same
jorm dodge into bash
shaman does shaman stuff and eats him alive

all wu lin can dodge his ♥♥♥♥

hmmm. did i forgot something?

dodge and gb? all of them? here i don't know the exact timing, maybe it does not work that well

counter bash if you have one?
crushing counter his followup heavy if you have superiour lights or blocks?
all assassins: deflect the followup heavy.
:'D

dodge backwards?
backwards light <-- dunno if this works, but might be a good try

NO I FORGOT MY MAN HIGHLANDER! well he can dodge and light (crushingcounter the heavy)/ hype armor throw the followup heby.
Kick this infidel who is trying to headbutt him and bounce off to the other side of the zone. :'D and then show him, why a big sword is better than a giant wooden/iron PP

[Oath Ooze Beer]

Publicado originalmente por Toasty Beacon:

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

Just tell me any hero thst cant punish shugos headbutt except warlord and cent because you said lots of heroes can't punish it which is incorrect.

hmmm, i can't think of one. :v srsly i am curious, too.

warden can bash
pk can dodge heby
bp can flip
gryphon can dodge heby
conq can dodge bash
glad same
warmommy dodge heby
LB dodge shob

kensei same
orochi dodge light
shinobi dodge dodge kick flip kick gb bleedpunish
hito doge heby
nobu stance
shugo doge bash
aramusha dodge heby or light i dunno
kyoshin dodge heby

raider storming tap
berserker dodge attack
valk same
jorm dodge into bash
shaman does shaman stuff and eats him alive

all wu lin can dodge his ♥♥♥♥

hmmm. did i forgot something?

dodge and gb? all of them? here i don't know the exact timing, maybe it does not work that well

counter bash if you have one?
crushing counter his followup heavy if you have superiour lights or blocks?
all assassins: deflect the followup heavy.
:'D

dodge backwards?
backwards light <-- dunno if this works, but might be a good try

NO I FORGOT MY MAN HIGHLANDER! well he can dodge and light (crushingcounter the heavy)/ hype armor throw the followup heby.

Highlander can dodge and get a kick as much as I know. You can't gb it if shugo follows with a heavy.

[Kritix]

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Let me explain why Shugo is indeed too broken. His 533ms dodge bash is delayable and has iframes. Deals dmg and stops all ongoing offense. This is already good enough. But he can also do heavy right after it which has HA so it's very safe and unpunishable except from heroes that have fast dodge attacks or side dodge bashes. And there are a lot of heroes that doesn't have this yet so he has very safe defense where he CAN IMMEDIATELY START his pressure. His feats are not in the balanced tier too. Smoke bomb and his braindead tier 4 that last 45 secs. Oh did I mention about how he can run around the map faster than shinobi? And he's a heavy type with largest effective HP because of already high HP pool and defensive perks like bastion so having such safe defense where he can immediately start his insane pressure is braindead and OP. It's like UBI really just put all the OP ideas into him because he was so weak before. And if you think Shugo is not braindead and brokenly overtuned, try to find a tournament match without Shugo, he is almost like must pick in any tournament match now.

Just tell me any hero thst cant punish shugos headbutt except warlord and cent because you said lots of heroes can't punish it which is incorrect.

Warmonger and JJ are 2 more example. Idk why I keep arguing with you when I have to keep pointing out simple gameplay mechanics like this.

Publicado originalmente por Toasty Beacon:

also a good wa to counter shugoki in 4v4 is: leave him to die of boredom on his point and hold the other 2 :v

im duel he is like zero threat. still depends on the player. but what can he do: he can dodge bash, light once and bash, hug without protection or play mindgames with his Heavy charge and bash. well...pretty much nothing. oh and he can forward dodge heavy.

just determine what type of player the enemie is and take away their options.

if he is not able to bash you he will most likely stop with it in the second round, or keeps doing it and gets punished.

if his charged heavy does not hit/ get's parried, he will stop using it and rather feint into gb.
next move gone.

just drive him into the moveset you want and finish him. yeah i know big talk and stuff: but that's how it works in theory. and the best thing is: you can do this with every hero. even the "braindead" ones.

I mean yea I agree with what you said. He's not that much annoying 1v1 and I'm not saying he is uncounterable or anything. But the balance of this game is mostly balanced with 4v4 mode and the stuffs that Shugo has is far more overpowered than any other heros. And not to mention good teams will rotate with Shugo, especially since he has super speed now so avoiding him is impossible. And having Shugo just makes everything braindead easy in 4v4. He needs a bit nerf in all areas, like not being able to chain after headbutt if headbutt retains it's dmg, or can chain if it loses the headbutt dmg(like glad bash which is good game design in that it counters opponents ongoing offense while you start your chain without any guaranteed dmg). But not like this current state where he can even chain into HA heavy on whiffed headbutt making him insanely strong. And a nerf in his tier 4 feat with some nerf in his super speed stamina costs/regen. Everyone that has brain and can play with skills agreed that his headbutt shouldn't be able to chain into HA heavy now, except some braindead Shugo players that're desperately trying to defend it. Competitive for honor discussion that mentioned about Shugo nerf

[Oath Ooze Beer]

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

Just tell me any hero thst cant punish shugos headbutt except warlord and cent because you said lots of heroes can't punish it which is incorrect.

Warmonger and JJ are 2 more example. Idk why I keep arguing with you when I have to keep pointing out simple gameplay mechanics like this.

You just proved that you don't know what you're talking about. Warmonger can side bash easly and jj can sifu stance and then zone him from sifu stance.

[Kritix]

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Warmonger and JJ are 2 more example. Idk why I keep arguing with you when I have to keep pointing out simple gameplay mechanics like this.

You just proved that you don't know what you're talking about. Warmonger can side bash easly and jj can sifu stance and then zone him from sifu stance.

Lmao I know you don't have brain but I didn't think you'd be that stupid. You do understand we're talking about dodge headbutt right? And when would Shugo use it??? When your attack is almost connecting, because it has iframes. And also it's delayable bash. You won't have enough time to sifu stance and use zone attack before the bash hit. And warmonger? lol "SiDe BaSh eAsLy". In reality if u tried side bash your iframe would end sooner and you're likely to get hit by headbutt because it has good tracking + delayable. And both of their side dodge attacks would get traded at best (still bad because shugo is tanky) or get interrupted or parried. You just proved you're just some braindead player that google movesets and just view them in spreadsheet format without considering real gameplay situation.

[Oath Ooze Beer]

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

You just proved that you don't know what you're talking about. Warmonger can side bash easly and jj can sifu stance and then zone him from sifu stance.

Lmao I know you don't have brain but I didn't think you'd be that stupid. You do understand we're talking about dodge headbutt right? And when would Shugo use it??? When your attack is almost connecting, because it has iframes. And also it's delayable bash. You won't have enough time to sifu stance and use zone attack before the bash hit. And warmonger? lol "SiDe BaSh eAsLy". In reality if u tried side bash your iframe would end sooner and you're likely to get hit by headbutt because it has good tracking + delayable. And both of their side dodge attacks would get traded at best (still bad because shugo is tanky) or get interrupted or parried. You just proved you're just some braindead player that google movesets and just view them in spreadsheet format without considering real gameplay situation.

You need to feint to neutral just like you're doing against any other defensive attack. Can't you even think that? Feint your attack then dodgve bash or sifu stance the headbutt.

[Kritix]

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

Publicado originalmente por Kritix:

Lmao I know you don't have brain but I didn't think you'd be that stupid. You do understand we're talking about dodge headbutt right? And when would Shugo use it??? When your attack is almost connecting, because it has iframes. And also it's delayable bash. You won't have enough time to sifu stance and use zone attack before the bash hit. And warmonger? lol "SiDe BaSh eAsLy". In reality if u tried side bash your iframe would end sooner and you're likely to get hit by headbutt because it has good tracking + delayable. And both of their side dodge attacks would get traded at best (still bad because shugo is tanky) or get interrupted or parried. You just proved you're just some braindead player that google movesets and just view them in spreadsheet format without considering real gameplay situation.

You need to feint to neutral just like you're doing against any other defensive attack. Can't you even think that? Feint your attack then dodgve bash or sifu stance the headbutt.

Feint your attack to dodge the headbutt = sure u dodge headbutt but no punish here so my point still stand and shugo can still safely go into his heavy chain
sifu stance the headbutt and zone = and you trade with shugo's follow up heavy (JJ 16dmg vs Shugo 31dmg)
do your research in real gameplay before you come arguing. and pls lower your inflated ego that you gain from playing braindead heroes and googling character movesets.

[Honor Guard Opossum]

Publicado originalmente por BlackPrior1989:

Publicado originalmente por Mr.IAmGodAndAll-knowing:

You just proved that you don't know what you're talking about. Warmonger can side bash easly and jj can sifu stance and then zone him from sifu stance.

He's correct about JJ him and Warden never needed reworks the warden rework just made Warden broken op same as JJ

But Warden did need a rework
And they nerfed one of his most overpowered features by removing his back dodge bash capabilities.