Kensei's top heavy finisher mixup

[LuNi]

I actually just realized that it's worthless. You have 1200 ms heavy attack and your mixup options have to be done before 600 ms into the animation.

Because Kensei has to commit into one of the mixups so early in the animation people can just wait and then react accordingly. Heroes with 500 ms lights can just poke you out of the finisher.

Kensei is a hero whose whole movekit is built to give him access to his top heavy unblockable mixup and still it's pretty much like Lawbringer's shove. It guarantees no damage against an opponent with enough skill to make the right reads.

If Ubisoft is going to buff Kensei at some point they should buff this mixup.

[LuNi]

Escrito originalmente por Gatsu:

Escrito originalmente por Landwalker:

Fair enough.

Speaking of bovine fecal matter, Kensei's side heavies from neutral are the same speed as Raider's side heavies, without the benefit of being soft-feintable. His top heavy is actually quite fast by heavy attack standards—700ms, the same speed as an Orochi top heavy—but it's also weaker, at 30 damage.

His top light from neutral is 500ms, but that's his only "fast attack", which means he's completely nullified by just blocking top. His forward-dash light (Helm Splitter) is also 500ms, but it's telegraphed with a dash, which makes it largely useless parry-bait.

Dont insult helm splitter ! I use it very much and it really works. Will not work fom neutral ofc. I use it to cancel the heavy finisher. After that another heavy finisher cancel to whatever dash gb or dodge light or soft feint to side heavy (this is bad easy parry). Not like a vortex but it is super fun thing to do.

So you've never actually played against a person who can counter everything you throw at them from the top heavy finisher mixup yet?

I've had that parried so often it hurts.

[Saint Landwalker]

Escrito originalmente por Gatsu:

Escrito originalmente por Landwalker:

Fair enough.

Speaking of bovine fecal matter, Kensei's side heavies from neutral are the same speed as Raider's side heavies, without the benefit of being soft-feintable. His top heavy is actually quite fast by heavy attack standards—700ms, the same speed as an Orochi top heavy—but it's also weaker, at 30 damage.

His top light from neutral is 500ms, but that's his only "fast attack", which means he's completely nullified by just blocking top. His forward-dash light (Helm Splitter) is also 500ms, but it's telegraphed with a dash, which makes it largely useless parry-bait.

Dont insult helm splitter ! I use it very much and it really works. Will not work fom neutral ofc. I use it to cancel the heavy finisher. After that another heavy finisher cancel to whatever dash gb or dodge light or soft feint to side heavy (this is bad easy parry). Not like a vortex but it is super fun thing to do.

Yeah, helm splitter is not an opener (exception: If a Raider is firing up his zone attack from neutral, go for it). It's an option out of the chain finisher mix-up (not necessarily a good one, but it's a thing sort of I guess). You can also cancel the chain finisher into Swift Strike if you really feel like gambling.

[Csx39]

Escrito originalmente por Landwalker:

. You can also cancel the chain finisher into Swift Strike if you really feel like gambling.

Loosing*

[Gatsu]

Escrito originalmente por LuNi:

Escrito originalmente por Gatsu:

Dont insult helm splitter ! I use it very much and it really works. Will not work fom neutral ofc. I use it to cancel the heavy finisher. After that another heavy finisher cancel to whatever dash gb or dodge light or soft feint to side heavy (this is bad easy parry). Not like a vortex but it is super fun thing to do.

So you've never actually played against a person who can counter everything you throw at them from the top heavy finisher mixup yet?

I've had that parried so often it hurts.

Well, in dominion it works :) but in 1v1 against patient defensive people. There is really nothing much to do as a kensei. I know.

[Gatsu]

Escrito originalmente por Landwalker:

Escrito originalmente por Gatsu:

Dont insult helm splitter ! I use it very much and it really works. Will not work fom neutral ofc. I use it to cancel the heavy finisher. After that another heavy finisher cancel to whatever dash gb or dodge light or soft feint to side heavy (this is bad easy parry). Not like a vortex but it is super fun thing to do.

Yeah, helm splitter is not an opener (exception: If a Raider is firing up his zone attack from neutral, go for it). It's an option out of the chain finisher mix-up (not necessarily a good one, but it's a thing sort of I guess). You can also cancel the chain finisher into Swift Strike if you really feel like gambling.

I like gampling, its fun. As long as I am having fun I dont mind. :) swift strike yes I can not remember the name I said dodge attack like a noob :D .

[LuNi]

Escrito originalmente por Gatsu:

Escrito originalmente por LuNi:

So you've never actually played against a person who can counter everything you throw at them from the top heavy finisher mixup yet?

I've had that parried so often it hurts.

Well, in dominion it works :) but in 1v1 against patient defensive people. There is really nothing much to do as a kensei. I know.

Dominion doesn't count. I've landed fully charged Conq hevies in dominion. I can count the times I've somehow managed to do that in duels with 1 hand.

[Gatsu]

Escrito originalmente por LuNi:

Escrito originalmente por Gatsu:

Well, in dominion it works :) but in 1v1 against patient defensive people. There is really nothing much to do as a kensei. I know.

Dominion doesn't count. I've landed fully charged Conq hevies in dominion. I can count the times I've somehow managed to do that in duels with 1 hand.

Not in a ganking situation, 1v1s can happen in dominion too people play more aggresive and fast compared to duels but I understand what you mean. Can not argue about that.

[Neon Knight]

Escrito originalmente por Jowain:

Escrito originalmente por LuNi:

Don't forget the awesome fact that it gives your opponent a heavy punish. Effectively rendering it useless against anyone who can parry highly telegraphed unfeintable attack.

Fine buff him then, see if that ever happens. I'd say make his top heavy finish go at 100ms and you'll be happy?

See what you're doing here?
Putting ridiculous words in someone's mouth and pretending that's what they actually think so you can nullify their point?

That's bad arguin bruh.
Don't do it.


About the top unblockable mixup...it's bad. The reason why it's bad is, if your opponent has a full understanding of all the things that can come out of it, they can properly defend against all of them, often on reaction.
The unblockable itself is extremely easy to parry, and almost always does get parried, and the stamina cost to reach it requires a huge amount of stamina. Probably putting you Out of Stamina (OOS)and thrown if it gets parried. Because the odds of it being parried or punished somehow are so high, it's actualy the one you want to use the least. So you mind game it into other choices. But, all the options suck and can only beat one of your opponent's defending options. ALL of these other attack options can result in Kensei losing the exchange.

Plenty of characters can just hit him with a light out of it. If he tries to trade by feinting the unblockable into the hyper armor side heavies, he can get hit with a light, AND still get hit side heavy blocked.
Unblockable feint into GB is beat by any attack in the game.
Unblockable soft feint into side finishers are easy to see coming and block, or parry.
Unblockable feint or soft feint into sideswipe or helm splitter beat a few options but the sideswipe and helmsplitter themselves cannot be feinted and last forever, so they will always be parried if your enemy doesn't dodge or try to parry the unblockable.
Unblockable feint into light is by far the most useful, because it doesn't cost much stamina and is quick enough to beat unblockable parry attempts, but this light is also parriable.

Note, what your opponent gets from a parry is greater than what you get from landing most of this, as most of it will just net a free light, or very occassionally a heavy or unblockable actually landing. But parries can get heavies and rob you of stamina, possibly putting you in OOS. Also, being that every choice Kensei has in their unblockable can result in them TAKING damage and getting nothing from it. So it isn't even in his favor. It can just force an exchange after he wastes enough stamina on whiffs or blocks. Even then, much of it can always be consistently negated anyway.
But, the unblockable mixup is the only thing he has approaching a "threat". Which is currently just forcing an exchange not necesssarily in his favor. The only other way he can damage you is by whiff punishing or hitting you while you try to do something else. And stuff like parrying and catching someone during a dodge. Ways everyone has to deal damage. Although, he excels at whiff punishing with his massive range.

In other words, you beat Kensei by.....
Not flinching, not hitting buttons out of range, not trying to parry most of his attacks, not spamming in his face, and knowing all his unblockables options. Which...once you know, reduces him to just a reactive counter hitter and whiff punisher.
So just.....do nothing. Block ♥♥♥♥. Top, in particular. Don't dodge much.

[LuNi]

Escrito originalmente por Jowain:

Escrito originalmente por Druid:

-snip, that was a textwall there-

So we buff Kensei then. Well assume he will, because we know how Ubisoft buffs and nerfs their heroes (glares at Shinobi and Warlord). Then what? Players who claim to be good with him will be better, way better in fact, depending on the nerf.

Stating "Do nothing, just block, top in particular" isn't helpful, since it's the same as "just dodge it" sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I had fun today with a Kensei who feinted everything, top heavy unblock especially. "DO NOTHING"?!
Please give me the instructions on how to be clairvoyant like you guys, because I sure can't tell that "he's going to feint it".
I rarely use the Defense Meta, I think it's boring, I'm an aggressive player, because waiting for X hero to make a move that isn't a fake out is dull, especially in Dominion.
Oh, we just stared at each other so long that it is now a gank fest, hooray! So much for DOING NOTHING against Kensei.

Kensei sit in about the same boat as Highlander I imagen, potential, but lacking in areas to be effective.
So how do we buff a Hero that in the hands of the current players of him might end up destroying most other players when that happens?
Edit: This can/will happen with Highlander if he's ever buffed.

However it seems that whenever I get in here it's always the same; people talking about Hero's that call "trash" "needing buffs" "needing rework" and it just so happens to be the same heros I meet ALL THE TIME in a game, the result ends with me eating the dirt. Could because I play Highlander or it could be that I don't have the "twitch reaction" when it comes to attacks... or a caffine addiction.

Block top. Don't parry hevies only lights. Learn how to avoid top heavy mixup. Gratz you have completed the advanced how to win against Kensei's course.

[Trippy Drug]

Escrito originalmente por Jowain:

Escrito originalmente por Druid:

-snip, that was a textwall there-

So we buff Kensei then. Well assume he will, because we know how Ubisoft buffs and nerfs their heroes (glares at Shinobi and Warlord). Then what? Players who claim to be good with him will be better, way better in fact, depending on the nerf.

Stating "Do nothing, just block, top in particular" isn't helpful, since it's the same as "just dodge it" sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I had fun today with a Kensei who feinted everything, top heavy unblock especially. "DO NOTHING"?!
Please give me the instructions on how to be clairvoyant like you guys, because I sure can't tell that "he's going to feint it".
I rarely use the Defense Meta, I think it's boring, I'm an aggressive player, because waiting for X hero to make a move that isn't a fake out is dull, especially in Dominion.
Oh, we just stared at each other so long that it is now a gank fest, hooray! So much for DOING NOTHING against Kensei.

Kensei sit in about the same boat as Highlander I imagen, potential, but lacking in areas to be effective.
So how do we buff a Hero that in the hands of the current players of him might end up destroying most other players when that happens?
Edit: This can/will happen with Highlander if he's ever buffed.

However it seems that whenever I get in here it's always the same; people talking about Hero's that call "trash" "needing buffs" "needing rework" and it just so happens to be the same heros I meet ALL THE TIME in a game, the result ends with me eating the dirt. Could because I play Highlander or it could be that I don't have the "twitch reaction" when it comes to attacks... or a caffine addiction.

If you can't handle Kensei's fast attacks,oh boy I hope you don't fight pks or glad often.
When he uses his top heavy finisher,wait for a bit,don't rush a reaction.After 600ms,Kensei won't be able to change his attack.Then you can choose to dodge or parry.
Change to side heavy finisher can be easily blocked.You could try to parry,but he might feint into light attack or something.
Change to gb is why you have to wait a bit before reacting,so he won't catch you mid-dodge.

That's it really.Kensei could never to the game's meta.He can be powerful if used correctly,but he ain't ♥♥♥♥ against good turtles.
Out of curiosity,what heroes do you happen to be playing while dealing with Kensei?

[Saint Landwalker]

Escrito originalmente por Jowain:

I'm an aggressive player, because waiting for X hero to make a move that isn't a fake out is dul

Well there's your problem right there. You're consciously, deliberately, intentionally giving your opponent exactly what he wants.

No wonder you have problems with Kensei. You're taking a character who is completely impotent unless his opponent allows himself to fall for all the baits, and then you're falling for all the baits.

[Trippy Drug]

Escrito originalmente por Landwalker:

Escrito originalmente por Jowain:

I'm an aggressive player, because waiting for X hero to make a move that isn't a fake out is dul

Well there's your problem right there. You're consciously, deliberately, intentionally giving your opponent exactly what he wants.

No wonder you have problems with Kensei. You're taking a character who is completely impotent unless his opponent allows himself to fall for all the baits, and then you're falling for all the baits.

This.And besides,it's not like he HAS to turtle,it's that he has to be careful,not open up a lot until he sees an opportunity.Kensei has hyper armor and some really hard-hitting heavies,so if you are careless and attack without giving it too much thought you are ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[LuNi]

Escrito originalmente por Landwalker:

Escrito originalmente por Jowain:

I'm an aggressive player, because waiting for X hero to make a move that isn't a fake out is dul

Well there's your problem right there. You're consciously, deliberately, intentionally giving your opponent exactly what he wants.

No wonder you have problems with Kensei. You're taking a character who is completely impotent unless his opponent allows himself to fall for all the baits, and then you're falling for all the baits.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me

[Neon Knight]

Escrito originalmente por CybermΩnk:

Escrito originalmente por Landwalker:

Well there's your problem right there. You're consciously, deliberately, intentionally giving your opponent exactly what he wants.

No wonder you have problems with Kensei. You're taking a character who is completely impotent unless his opponent allows himself to fall for all the baits, and then you're falling for all the baits.

This.And besides,it's not like he HAS to turtle,it's that he has to be careful,not open up a lot until he sees an opportunity.Kensei has hyper armor and some really hard-hitting heavies,so if you are careless and attack without giving it too much thought you are ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I third this. I am so sorry dude, but this isn't the game to be aggressive. It has this...somewhat cancerous dynamic of favoring the person that moves second, and doesn't offer much for punishing too much obvious turtling. Definitely, measure your aggression in this game. Be...deliberate, with it. Don't think you're going to out speed anyone, if you get me.

You don't really know for sure if someone will feint or not. For this reason, parrying heavies isn't entirely safe. But it's easy.

The thing about jUsT pArRy iT!!, or just dodge it, is they require you to act quickly enough to avoid taking damage. Wheras, do nothing takes the onus off of you, and letting you relax and do as you please. For example, you can choose to block everything Kensei t hrows at you, and throw your rock, paper, or scissors when the unblockable comes out. Or you could parry whatever you want, or throw a light at any time, etc. You can absolutely just wait until he makes a mistake, giving you a chance for free damage.

I really wish I could give you advice on reading when someone might feint. It's kinda...a feel thing. Threat and pattern precedence along with how you think your opponent might try to counter whatever you're doing.

Also, dominion is....different. Its fast paced, chaotic nature makes different strats and characters more or less useful. Even though, technically, all the same stuff could happen, reaction speed is lowered for most, by multitasking so much stimulus, and trying to progress the objectives.

About him being buffed, that's a hard thing too. The way he functions involves him using his actual chain combo, which it seems the devs didn't think would be as underutilized as they are, due to how easy parrying is. His whiff punishing and counter hitting is vicious but...without being able to reach his unblockable, none of it would matter, because you could just block it all anyway.
His unblockable being bad breaks him. He's got plenty of deterrent, but the only threat he's got is the unblockable mixup that can only come out if you let him reach the end of his chain, or after an extremely unsafe dash attack, after you don't get to parry it for any reason. But this "threat" is empty, what with I was talking about earlier with it just being a forced reaction not really even his favor.
It might seem like a fix to improve his frame data to where the unblockable mixup offers less chance for him take damage, and better odds for him to DEAL damage, but, in theory, every light or heavy in his chain that leads to that unblockable can still just be parried. So even then, he could still just lose because he lost the best out of 3 rock paper scissors match of whether or not to feint.

Buff thoughts~
So either, the way he can threat, or how well he can reach his threat, needs to change. or the commitment needed to reach, and mix up, the unblockable could be improved. Either way, the unblockable mixup itself needs to be quick enough to make the defender commit to a way of not taking damage, without opening Kensei up TOO much.
In my game, I'd just make him do good stamina damage with that big sword, along with the unblockable mixup improvements.
That would be enough to make him "good". He'd still be unique amongst the cast that way. and his basic attacks themselves and chain would become a tide you'd need stem. Give his all his range and basic attacks some degree of threat, if allowed to continue.
~in muh ♥♥♥♥♥♥ opinion.