Preliminary Conqueror Rework Analysis and Thoughts

[Saint Landwalker]

A few people here and elsewhere have asked me what I think about the Conqueror rework. I don't know why they asked me, since my opinion doesn't matter and I'm a talentless hack, but they wanted to know anyway. And since it helps me to organize my thoughts if I write them down, I figured I'd go ahead and do just that. I'm going to try to set aside my usual pessimistic demeanor and evaluate this as impartially as possible.

If you don't care about my opinion, then congratulations—you have made the right decision.

For everyone else, let's goooooo.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Charged Heavy

• Charged Heavies are now Unblockable.
  
  
  • There is no "Uncharged", "Level 1 Charged" and "Fully Charged" version anymore - it's either fully charged or it's a regular heavy. A pink flash will show when it's fully charged.
    
    
  • The "Charged Finisher" has been removed.
  
  
• Fully charging takes 900ms.
  
  
• Top Heavy Unblockable is 800ms, and does 44 damage.
  
  
• Side Heavy Unblockable is 700ms, and does 33 damage.
  
  
• The Stance Change while charging is now 100ms (was 300ms).
  
  
• Conqueror can no longer launch a Light Attack while charging.
  
  
• Has Immunity to Guard Break starting at 100ms into the strike.
  
  Developer Comments: Charged Heavy Opener was in a very strange spot before - it was easy to reach because it had Conqueror's passive Superior Block defense, but was easy for the opponent to block too. So now, we added risk by taking away the defense and added reward by making it Unblockable.
  
  We removed the Light option to streamline what this hero is about - conceptually, we're trying to position the Conqueror to have significantly different feelings while in the various states - regular mode, charging mode, full-block mode - and making fighting against them in these states have clearly different feelings.
  
  We removed the various levels of charging because it's now extremely clear if the Conqueror has charged his attack and what his options are, whereas before it was all exactly the same.

For the most part, I think this is a good change. Conqueror's Charged Heavy needed to be unblockable, because as it stood it was (and still is) extremely telegraphed and difficult to use. Allowing him to charge up an unblockable might let him actually do something with the charged heavy other than "get parried."

The damage and speed are a little disappointing, though. Prework Conqueror's fully charged heavy does 45 damage and is 600ms. Postwork Conqueror will get 44 damage on an 800ms top, and 33 on a 700ms side. It's not terrible, but it does change the move a bit. It'll probably still be useful in group fights where you can hang out somewhere and drop 44 unblockable damage on someone who's not looking at you, and in duels it might be able to get a reaction out of people.

The stance speed change probably won't affect much, simply because nobody throws attacks against a Conqueror who's charging a heavy anyway—they either throw guard breaks (since he can't tech them) or nothing.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Superior Block Reworked

• Conqueror no longer has passive Superior Block. It has been replaced with the same Regular Block properties as the rest of the roster.
  
  
• Conqueror retains Superior block on
  
  
  • Heavy Openers,
    
    
  • Fully Charged Heavy Openers,
    
    
  • Front and Side Dodges,
    
    
  • Full Block Stance (see next entry below).
  
  Developer Comments: Conqueror has enjoyed the ability to Block and follow with a free Guard Break against many characters' heavy attacks.
  
  The ability to get a guaranteed Guard Breaks off a simple Block was too good - the Conqueror risked nothing and got a huge benefit. It also shut down many opponents from being able to use heavies. While we take away the passive Superior Block, by having it on the states listed above, the feeling of being a Heavy should remain, but now Conqueror will take some risks to get those benefits.

So let me get this out of the way: I support Conqueror losing superior block from neutral. Taking it away not only gives Conqueror's opponents more ways to engage him, but it also means Conqueror has more ways to respond to his opponents.

It doesn't seem like the devs have done anything to fix Conqueror's fluky Superior Block Heavy Attacks, unfortunately, so those are still a mixed bag. Sometimes they work, and it's great (especially with the parry nerfs). Sometimes they get blocked, and it's sad. Sometimes they get parried, and you want to set an orphanage on fire.

Adding Superior Block to his Full Block stance was a good move, though. Prework Full Block was horrible. I mean horrible. Now it will be extremely useful in group fights. It might be usable in duels, but we'll get to that later—I'm skeptical.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

New Move: Shield Uppercut

• All Heavies can be cancelled into the new move "Shield Uppercut".
  
  
• Shield Uppercut is a:
  
  
  • 800ms attack.
    
    
  • Unblockable Melee.
    
    
  • Does 10 Stamina damage .
    
    
  • Has Immunity to Guard Break starting at 100ms into the strike.
    
    
  • “Shield Uppercut” can do damage if the feat “Shield Basher” is active.
  
  
• Hit Recovery is 700ms (was 800ms), and you get Stance Change / Default Defense at 600ms.
  
  
• Miss Recovery is now 700ms (was 600ms), and you get Stance Change / Default Defense at 600ms.
  
  Developer Comments: Conqueror's Charged Heavies are easily dodged - but with this Melee as a Cancel option, it should help punish people who you correctly predict will do a side dodge. Hitting with this move guarantees a follow-up of a Light Attack.

Yikes.

There's nothing about this move that looks good.

Let's look at the concept of it: It's an unblockable CC from a soft-feint that confirms damage. Okay, fine.

The problem is that it's extremely slow. It's 800ms, with 700ms of recovery, which means it's basically a free GB on any dodge. It's so slow that anyone could feint an attempted parry and dodge it with ease, which means a free punish. It's also so slow that most of the cast won't even have to feint to a dodge. At 800ms, Shield Uppercut (which has no defensive properties of its own) will lose the race to a large number of opponents' heavy attacks, so they don't even have to feint their parry attempts—they can just let them rip and win anyway. It will also lose out to every side-dodge attack in the game, because of course it will. Highlander in Offensive Stance can dodge the initial attack, recover from his dodge, then dodge again.

The only time this will be useful is if you use it from Conqueror's new unblockable charged heavy, and the opponent tries to dodge the heavy and doesn't have (or, for some reason, throw) a side-dodge attack. But since most of the cast can just attempt to parry with impunity, that won't happen very often once the dust settles on this. The one time a week this move actually lands, it'll confirm a 15 damage light, which isn't a very appealing probability trade for the Conqueror. From who I've talked to and what I've seen, I'm pretty confident that Shield Uppercut doesn't even wall-splat, so you can't even get any situational benefit from it where you might knock someone into the wall for a heavy attack.

I honestly don't see this move having any place in the Conqueror's eventual gameplay. If they sped up the Shield Uppercut itself and reduced the recovery frames, then maybe it could find a spot, but right now this just seems like a waste of an animation.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Chains

• Chains have been reworked. Now Conqueror can follow up any:
  
  
  • Light can be followed with any Light, Heavy or Shield Bash Mix Up
    
    
  • Heavy can be followed with any Light, Heavy or Shield Bash Mix Up
    
    
  • Shield Bash can be followed with any Light or Heavy
  
  Developer Comments: Conqueror had a real problem where if you hit with a Basic Light Opener, you could only do another Light, but that hardly ever worked. Also, if Conqueror hit with a Heavy, you had to do either do a Shield Bash Mix Up or Heavy…but these had basically the same long timing.
  
  Consequently, Conquerors mostly only took their guaranteed damage after a Shield Bash, but then stopped attacking. We don't want you to have to stop attacking because of how unlikely your options are to work – so we improved the chain rules to help Conquerors sustain their attack.

For the most part, I like this. Conscript's Attrition was a useless (really, really useless) attack chain. Letting Conqueror freely mix-and-match his lights, heavies, and Shield Bash Mix-up will at least let him look interesting while he's attacking.

I don't know how useful it'll end up being. Conqueror isn't as constrained, directionally, Aramusha is, and he's also got the Shield Bash Mix-up to work with. But SBMU is 800ms and has increased recovery time (below), so it's an easy punish, and since Conqueror's lights are interrupted on block (a change I was hoping would make it into this rework), their utility in this chain might not be as useful as it could be.

All in all, I like this for an aesthetic improvement if nothing else. The mix-and-match chain might be moderately useful in fights, but I just don't know. I'm not convinced this is going to be a useful option for getting damage outside of his shield bashes (as the devs seem to think it will be). He definitely won't hold a candle to Berserker's infinite chain by a long shot.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Light Attacks

• Top Basic Light Attack's strike is now 500ms (was 600ms).
  
  
• Light Infinite Strikes are now 500ms (were 600ms).
  
  
• All Light Attacks do 15 damage (were 12).

Full Block Stance Cancel

• Removed Full Block Stance cancel from all Light strikes.
  
  Developer Comments: Cancelling the fastest attacks was causing Flicker and rollback issues, so this is why we removed it from the Light strikes. We kept the ability to enter Full Block Stance from the Heavy attacks, and from Light and Heavy recoveries.

Improving his chained light speed is good, but it's still just 500ms. Valkyrie has 500ms chained lights, too. How's that working out for her?

By the same token, speeding up the top light to 500ms is fine, but it's still one-directional, and we all know how well Kensei did with a one-directional 500ms attack.

The damage increase is long, long overdue. I'd still like to see his side light openers (which are still 600ms) do 17 damage, though, but I can understand why they don't (because of Shield Bash).

Removing the ability to Full Block Cancel his lights is a real bummer. With Prework Conqueror, using liberal full block cancels was one of the few tools he had to apply pressure to opponents. In duels, since he had multiple options to cancel Full Block (which he no longer has, see below), he could use it as a mix-up tool. In 4s, he could take the Punch Through feat and go bananas with the mind-games on a hapless opponent. Both of those are gone now.

Presumably, the idea is to replace that style with his infinite chain mix-up. Maybe that will work, but because of how visually obvious Conqueror's heavy animations are and how useless Shield Uppercut looks, I don't think it'll be a clean substitute. Ultimately, this is going to be a "Well, we'll see how it winds up" sort of situation.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Full Block Stance

• When successfully Blocking an attack from Full Block Stance, Conqueror can now connect to new move “Flail Uppercut”.
  
  
• Conqueror no longer can Shield Bash Riposte, Dodge, or basic Attack during Full Block Stance, or Full Block Stance Exit.
  
  
• Conqueror can Zone Attack from Full Block Stance.
  
  
• Full Block Stance defense is now considered Superior (was Regular).
  
  
• Full Block Stance Entry is now 300ms (was 200ms).
  
  
• Full Block Stance Exit is now 200ms (was 400ms).
  
  
• Stamina cost for entering Full Block Stance is now 20 (was 6).
  
  
• Stamina regen cooldown after Full Block Stance has been removed (was 4.0s).
  
  
• Stamina cost for blocking an attack from Full Block Stance has been made 0, no longer regen stamina during these blocks, and Conqueror no longer is unbalanced when blocking and going out of stamina.
  
  Developer Comments: In keeping with the general philosophy of risk/reward on this character, now if you block something from Full Block Stance, you can punish them with a “Flail Uppercut” (see “Flail Uppercut” below). The intention is that this is now something you use to punish predicted attacks with rather than a safe way to turtle.

Man. What a batch of changes.

As mentioned above, Full Block loses a lot of its potential as a (mediocre) mix-up tool. No more shield bashes, dodges, or attacks being used to cancel the Full Block. Instead, the only option to cancel it is a 600ms, 10-damage, one-directional, high-stamina zone attack. That's not bueno.

Even if those options remained, more than tripling the stamina cost of entering Full Block is a gut punch if ever I saw one. That's offset somewhat by the other stamina changes. Losing the stamina regen cooldown is fantastic, and since Full Block now has Superior Block properties, not taking stamina damage while blocking is a nice little perk.

Remember that Conqueror can't CGB from Full Block, though. With a 300ms start-up time, this move is mostly just going to be useful against telegraphed, non-cancelable moves (like Swift Strike, Headsplitter Leap, etc.). Anything else is going to require a risky read. The good news is that if you do make the right read, you get a pretty damn good reward (Flail Uppercut, below).

The addition of Superior Block to FB Stance is also going to really strengthen Conqueror in 4v4 group fights. He can wade into a scrum, drop into Full Block, and bounce enemies attacks to let allies get punishes (and to get a Flail Uppercut himself).

Overall verdict: Great change for 4s. Very mixed bag for 1s. The impact of these changes on Conqueror's duel performance will really depend on how useful the chnges to his infinite mix-up chain end up being.

[Saint Landwalker]

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

NEW MOVE: Flail Uppercut

• Replaces "Shield Bash Riposte" (which no longer exists).
  
  
• “Flail Uppercut’s” strike is 500ms (Shield Bash Riposte was 800ms).
  
  
• Uses Heavy input.
  
  
• Does 30 damage.
  
  
• Can execute.
  
  Developer Comments: This move is intended to be guaranteed after successfully predicting an attack from Full Block Stance.
  
  We feel that since the Conqueror is taking a risk with Full Block Stance, Conqueror deserves to land good damage as the reward. Shield Bash Riposte did not do a good job to help Conqueror counter-attack so Flail Uppercut has been build specifically for that purpose.

First of all, I hate losing Shield Bash Riposte. It was a key part of Conqueror's (meh) Full Block mix-ups. I would have loved to see Shield Bash Riposte simply be guaranteed on a Full Block. SBR was also usable even without blocking anything, while Flail Uppercut is not. Bummer.

Still, Flail Uppercut itself is a great addition and it's something Conqueror always should have had. It's comparable to Warlord's heavy counter slash, but better as a counter-attacking move. Unlike Warlord's counter, it can't be used from neutral FB (lame), but we could also see from the dev's preview that it works as a chain starter, which means Conqueror can seamlessly flow from a defensive posture into a (hopefully) sustained offensive pressure application.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Shield Bash Mix-Up

• After a hit, branching to Light Attack is now at 400ms (was at 0ms).
  
  
• After a hit, branching to Heavy Attack and Full Block Stance are now at 400ms (were at 300ms).
  
  
• Shield Bash Mix Up is slightly better at tracking opponents who dodge sideways.
  
  
• Hit area reduced horizontally.
  
  
• Shield Bash now does 10 stamina damage (was 20).
  
  
• Immune to Guard Breaks property now starts at 100ms.
  
  
• Hit Recovery is now 700ms (was 800ms), and you get Stance Change / Default Defense at 600ms (before you could perform any action at 600ms).
  
  
• Miss Recovery is now 700ms (was 600ms), and you get Stance Change / Default Defense at 600ms (before you could perform any action at 400ms). You do get the ability to launch Light Attack, Heavy Attack, and Full Block Stance at 300ms.
  
  Developer Comments: After the Shield Bash Mix Up, you are still guaranteed the Light Attack - but no longer guaranteed the Heavy Attack unless you hit them into a wall.
  
  Note that all the Shield Bashes on the Conqueror now do 10 stamina damage - this is to move Conqueror away from sapping the opponent's stamina, as the Conqueror is now better positioned as a mix of hard-hitting offense, and predictive defense with good punishes – rather than trying to be a stamina bully.

Rip heavy attacks.

Conqueror's 800ms uncancelable dodge-bait shield bash now only guarantees a 15-damage light attack instead of a 25-damage heavy attack. Meanwhile, let's remember that Highlander is going to have what's basically a 33/33/33 guessing game, all the parts of which are faster than 800ms and which has multiple layers of cancels, and which if the defender guesses wrong will confirm 40 damage and cycle back to the start.

So I'm a little hacked off about losing my ability to get the weakest heavy attack in the game off an 800ms shield bash.

I also don't understand why the horizontal hit area was reduced, since it wasn't very good to begin with.

It's not all doom and gloom here, though. Having a bit of guard break immunity is always nice, although I can't say that I was frequently getting GB'd out of this move in the first place. Conqueror can also cancel the recovery of his "medium shield bash" pretty quickly, so it becomes something of a read-and-prediction game with his opponent: If Conqueror cancels into Full Block, he's susceptible to guard breaks but can block and punish sideways dodging weapon attacks. If he cancels into an attack, he can beat guard breaks (and may be able to beat side-dodge CC attacks, although I'm skeptical about that) but is vulnerable to being parried. Recovery cancel is quite nice. It remains to be seen how useful it'll be, though.

For this particular move, the stamina damage reduction is kind of a "meh" for me. I think it should do its original 20, since it's a heavy, slow move, but the stamina damage was never really a meaningful part of this move in the first place.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Shield Bash

• Forward Dodge now branches to Shield Bash from 100ms-500ms (was 300ms-500ms).
  
  
• Forward Dodge now branches to Full Block Stance from 600ms (was 800ms).
  
  
• Forward Dodge can now branch to attack options, including Guard Break, from 600ms (was 800ms).
  
  
• After a hit, all branching’s start at 100ms (some were at 0ms, some 300ms, some 600ms).
  
  
• Light Attack is still guaranteed after a Shield Bash.
  
  
• Hit area reduced horizontally.
  
  
• Shield Bash now does 10 stamina damage (was 20).
  
  
• Reduced Shield Bash attack range on Front Dodge to 1.25m (from 1.5m), and from Side Dodge to 1.25m (from 2.0m).
  
  
• Increased forward movement by 1.0m.
  
  
• Shield Bash knockback reduced by 0.8m, to reduce the situations in which you whiff the following Light attack.
  
  
• Hit Recovery is now 700ms (was 800ms), and you get Stance Change / Default Defense at 600ms (before you could perform any action at 600ms).
  
  
• Miss Recovery is now 700ms (was 600ms), and you get Stance Change / Default Defense at 600ms (before you could perform any action at 400ms).
  
  Developer Comments: Light Attack is still a guaranteed follow-up if the Shield Bash hit. Heavy Attack is no longer guaranteed.
  
  Movement changes should result in no significant change in function – we reduce part and increase another part so that it visually looks better, but reaches the same distance.

What a mixed bag.

For the most part, I think this will make Conqueror's shield bash more useful as an aggression tool. Letting him start the bash earlier in the dodge (but only for a forward dodge) actually makes it usable, and he has the option to significantly delay the bash as well, so he can play timing games with it. Conqueror can also use various options to cancel his forward dodge, but only the forward dodge, at the 600ms mark instead of having to wait for the entire, brutal 800ms in order to act.

It's not all rainbows and unicorns, though. Conqueror still has the worst side dodges in the game, and unlike the forward dodge he has no options to cancel them. This has always been a pretty serious problem in Conqueror's defense, and the devs aren't doing anything to address it. His back-dash is also still the worst in the game by recovery-time (and one of the worst in distance).

Losing half his stamina damage on a Shield Bash hurts more than it does on the SBMU above, because this is the move he's actually likely to ever hit anybody with. I get that Conqueror isn't envisioned as a stamina bully, but considering how bad Conqueror's own stamina is to begin with, being able to wear down opponents as well was one of the few things that let him stand toe to toe with them.

Lastly, they've increased the recovery on his shield bash. Unlike SBMU, he has no options to cancel the recovery here, so if Conqueror does whiff a shield bash, he's going to be very punishable. And it'll be easier for him to whiff a bash, too, because they've reduced the attack range slightly on his forward dodge bash and dramatically on his side dodge bashes. This means that Conqueror will be even weaker against back-dodger heroes (mostly assassins, but Warden is another noteworthy back-dodger) than he already was—and considering that he was already unable to attack those heroes at all, this change is going to just exacerbate that weakness.

All in all, I don't know what to make of this. The improvements to his forward dodge are welcome, but the lack of attention and the nerfs in the rest of the move make this a tough pill. The fact that they've nothing to help his side dodges, both in terms of starting up the shield bash and in terms of shortening the dodge recovery, are severe weaknesses that continue to be unaddressed. On top of that, the devs are piling even longer recovery on him, should he miss a shield bash (which is now quite a bit easier to miss).

This seems like it will make Conqueror's match-ups that are already bad even worse, while only providing relatively marginal benefit in the rest of his encounters. Until Conqueror gets some even remotely acceptable side-dodges and some sort of option to combat back-dodgers, he'll never be sustainable in duels.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Charging Shield Crush

• The Hit recovery is now 300ms longer.
  
  
• The Hit recovery no longer forces Conqueror into Out Of Lock.
  
  
• The Hit area reduced horizontally.
  
  
• Charging Shield Crush now does 10 stamina damage (was 0).
  
  
• Charging Shield Crush now moves the opponent 0.5m further backward.
  
  Developer Comments: Before, the Conqueror was able to hit the opponent, but because the opponent was in the Get Up animation, the opponent does not react to the hit. The opponent could then get an Uncounterable Guard Break on the Conqueror.
  
  Now, the Conqueror doesn't get any guaranteed damage after a Charging Shield Crush. With the new timing, opponents will be up in time to block. We want this move to be good in group fights, and in certain situations where the opponent is near a ledge, but not something Conquerors would want to rely on in duels.

This completely baffles me.

The obvious fix to Conqueror's GB vulnerability after following up a Shield Crush was to remove the GB vulnerability. Instead, they removed his ability to follow up the Shield Crush at all. So now, an already mediocre OOS pressure tool to chase down dodge-spammers is gone entirely.

This was never a move that Conqueror did or could or even wanted to rely on in duels, because it's slow, telegraphed, and was as dangerous to the Conqueror (if not moreso) than it was to the opponent. So now, while Warlord and Raider can still run around in duels and spam their unblockable command grabs/throws for free damage, Conqueror has nothing.

The changes won't make the the move any more useful in 4s, either. So basically this is just a straight-up gutting.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Top Heavy

• Top Heavy is now 33 damage (was 25).
  
  Developer Comments: Top Heavy is longer than Side Heavies and so isn't guaranteed on Guard Break or after a Flail Uppercut. To help the Conqueror earn the ‘Hard Hitter’ moniker, we also increase the damage on this Top Heavy opener.

Good change. Conqueror's top heavy was horrible. Now it's borderline. The damage buff also gives him a more consistent wall-splat punish, which is welcome (not that he'll be getting wall-splats, but let's still be happy about this). This also makes Conqueror probably the only hero in the whole roster who will have a net buff to his light parry punish as a result of the upcoming parry changes.

Ubisoft 1.19 Patch Notes a écrit :

Zone Attack

• When activated from Full Block Stance, we removed a 100ms gap on startup where the Conqueror had no defense.
  
  
• Conqueror now can be Parried properly on the 2nd or later hit.
  
  
• Conqueror is no longer interrupted by blocking a minion strike.
  
  Developer Comments: Since this is considered Superior Block during the attack, the Zone Attack isn't stopped when blocking an incoming attack. Opponents are expected to beat it with an Unblockable, a Melee, or just walk up and Parry it on their Left side.

Thank God they're finally fixing the "minion interrupt" on Conqueror's zone attack. This has been long, long overdue since it crept into the game back around October.

The rest of it is kind of a shrug. The way the parry change is worded, it sounds like this move will become a lot less useful in group fights / anti-gank situations, which sucks and kind of defeats the conceptual purpose of a zone attack, but at the same time it makes sense for it to be parryable. Removing the bizarre defense gap in the move's start-up (even if only when used from full block) is also welcome.

I'd like to see this move have better GB immunity, since it's not uncommon to get grabbed out of its start-up. I'd also like to see the first hit in the zone come faster, especially since it only does 10 damage. However, even without those changes, the zone might still have a sort of fringe position in Conqueror's arsenal, so they aren't critical.

[Saint Landwalker]

SUMMARY OF IMPRESSIONS

Conqueror will be a completely different character. He's losing a lot of what made up his fighting style, and I'm not just talking about standing there and turtling because that's not how competent Conquerors fought in the first place. He's going to be unrecognizable when this update drops.

The devs also seem not to have addressed the problems Conqueror had that made certain match-ups essentially an auto-loss. He's still too slow and has way too much recovery time to be able to attack assassins. He can't fight back-dodgers at all. He can't fight decent Highlanders (because of Offensive Stance dodges coupled with Conqueror's brutal recovery frames).

There are still some good changes in there. His forward shield bash is more viable (even though his side-dodge shield bashes are even worse than they already were). Flail Uppercut is a great addition. The changes to when and how he gets Superior Block are reasonable and a net improvement for the game overall. The changes to his attack chains are interesting, although whether or not they're useful is still TBD.

I just have absolutely no idea what sort of hero is going to ultimately walk out of the update Thursday morning. Will the positive changes outweigh the negative changes and the negative non-changes?

I think Conqueror is ultimately going to be very strong in team fights. The change to Full Block will make him a great support hero in a group engagement, to the extent that he could be on the border of a meta composition pick. But when I look at all the changes in aggregate, I don't see him improving in duels at all—if anything, he might even wind up worse off than he already is. The match-ups that were fair for him before (and bearing in mind, I'm using the two weeks when he accidentally lost Superior Block as the barometer here) might see a bit of an improvement for him, but the match-ups that he couldn't compete in before this update look like they're still going to be non-competitive after the update, and they'll stay that way until the developers do something about at least one of back-dodge defenses and/or Conqueror's atrocious pressure game and movement recovery.

[UbiJurassic]

I'll make sure this write-up gets passed along to the team Landwalker. I'm sure your insight, along with anyone else that would like to add their thoughts, would be appreciated.

[Saint Landwalker]

UbiJurassic a écrit :

I'll make sure this write-up gets passed along to the team Landwalker. I'm sure your insight, along with anyone else that would like to add their thoughts, would be appreciated.

Much appreciated, sir. I know I'm not someone whose opinion is held in any regard, but as the champion of the casuals, I still run my mouth. =P

Hopefully after the update when (or "if", if we're being optimistic) the devs see that Conqueror still has a lot of the same problems (and new problems) they won't be resistant to making additional numbers tweaks. I think a lot of the changes are a great step, but some of them (and some of the non-changes) still need numerical adjustments to get Conqueror all the way.

[steal_TH-9]

UbiJurassic a écrit :

I'll make sure this write-up gets passed along to the team Landwalker. I'm sure your insight, along with anyone else that would like to add their thoughts, would be appreciated.

The lord has spoken, heed unto the words of his prophets!

[Saint Landwalker]

After having a sleep on it, it occurs to me that Conqueror will be even more hard-countered by Gladiator after the update than he is right now. And right now there's no reason for him to ever land a hit, so that's saying something.

Consider the following:

• Gladiator's zone attack is 600ms for the first hit. if the first hit, which is unblockable and unparryable, connects, the second hit is guaranteed.
  
  
• Zone attack uses the Light + Heavy inputs.
  
  
• If you throw a zone attack within the "parry window" of an incoming attack, you'll parry that attack just like if you had thrown just a heavy.
  
  
• Conqueror's Shield Uppercut is 800ms.
  
  
• Conqueror's Full Block start-up is 300ms, and FB exit is 200ms.
  
  
• Conqueror can no longer dodge from Full Block stance.

This means that any time Conqueror attacks, Gladiator can throw a zone attack. If Conqueror follows through with the attack, he gets parried. If he cancels into a Shield Uppercut, he gets hit by the zone because Shield Uppercut is too slow. If he cancels into Full Block, he gets hit by the zone because he can't cancel to FB and then dodge the first part of the zone attack, and his total "in and out" time is too long to allow him to cancel to FB, exit FB, and still dodge the zone attack.

Now, you may be thinking "Well Conqueror can just shield bash him."

Nope.

Gladiator can side-dodge into a buckler punch on reaction to any Conqueror dodge. This will both dodge a shield bash (even if it's the earliest possible timing for the bash) and be fast enough to land a hit if Conqueror does a "dodge feint" into light or GB. And since the buckler punch is unblockable, Conqueror can't cancel his dodge into Full Block, either. Sure, the buckler punch doesn't guarantee anything for the Gladiator—except in 4s, where the Haymaker feat means he gets 10 confirmed damage whenever Conqueror thinks about moving—but it still means Gladiator is completely untouchable by Conqueror.

Compound that with the fact that, unlike Kensei, the devs have given Conqueror absolutely nothing with which to punish back-dodgers and rollers, and no ability to dodge himself (while simultaneously moving the game more in the direction of unblockable-centric mix-ups, so Conqueror's blocking abilities become irrelevant), and it's really looking like Conqueror will be just as bad in duels (if not worse) than he already currently is.

[Azullie~]

Ubi, if you have any sense to fix these changes, and make conq a more viable option, *listen to this man*. Im a conq main through and through since launch, and nerf after nerf, Ive stuck by him, even with the accidental removal of superior block. These changes, I originally thought would be not as bad as everyone says, and would at least give him pretty clear offensive opportunities and defensive capabilities, but they were also able to mix somewhat as well. I trust that Landwalker here has a pretty good sense what hes talking about, even if he disregards his own opinion, and I can reliably assume that he is a conq main himself, seeing he says and describes conq in a way that falls in line with someone who understands the character. Now that Ive read this, I can actually clearly see a pretty good approximation what these changes will actually do for conq in 1v1s.

Which isnt a whole lot. He'll be slightly better and as a whole different, but not much has changed. Some issues have been fixed, but for a rework, its pretty pitiful.

(Personally, I think every character should be balanced from a 1v1 perspective) But Ill be brief in my thoughts. Please, for the love of god, listen to this guys interpretations of what impact they might actually have and how the changes will be recieved in matchups. At least take these into consideration when balancing him after, because as of now, his rework has actually changed him for neither the better or worse. His stam, attack speed and damage buffs are nice, but he is still stuck with the original issue, which is hes stuck with the same amount of proportionately lacking tools. Full block stance is useful, and charging heavy I can actually use, but in the end, his oppressive style of play is still at a disadvantage. As I said, take into consideration Landwalkers opinion, because I feel if you balanced around this somewhat, he'll actually be better because of it, and his overall playstyle will fall in line with what how he should play. And thanks landwalker, for your thoughts, giving me a sense what thisll do for my main.

[Azullie~]

Landwalker a écrit :

SUMMARY OF IMPRESSIONS

Conqueror will be a completely different character. He's losing a lot of what made up his fighting style, and I'm not just talking about standing there and turtling because that's not how competent Conquerors fought in the first place.

I also really appreciate this as well. Someone else who finally understands this is a pretty nice thing as well. Although playing aggressively to abuse the defense is at an extreme disadvantage, its better than sitting there and hoping you win.

[Starwight/ttv]

Well, LW, after reading the patch changes on Conq and your breakdown of what it all means for conq. Sad Rah.

I was actually thinking of trying out conq and if I liked him, making him my new main, especially if Kensei turns S tier (I don't like to main the god tier heros because people like to think you're no skill if you do). However, I mainly duel, not 4v4--and it really looks like he is going to struggle against at least half the cast in duels.

So, kinda sad, kinda dissapointed. I wanted to see a conq. that could hold their own against anyone if properly skilled. I want to see that out of EVERY hero. The fact that, after almost 5 seasons hero pick is STILL more important than skill in the long run, is very sad. Very sad indeed.

At least it seems he will fare pretty good in 4v4 though. SOME of us, however, want to, as you so eloquently put it, set an orphanage on fire whenever we try to play 4v4.