People who want only reactable moves in this game

[There'sNoStringOnMe]

What do you do with your own reactable moves against a turtle, really?

[There'sNoStringOnMe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Jemppa:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HagaH:

That doesn't really answer the problem I posed. You see, there are people who ask for everything to be completely reactable in the game, they are mad because Shaolin's 'overkit', Shaman 'has too many things going for her', Nuxia's 400ms lights are bs, etc. etc. etc. Mind you, those 3 are all assassins or assassin hybrids, without unreactable moves they're **** against turtles. Imagine Orochi without 400ms chain light and Storm Rush mixup. Or simply Cent.

I currently don't have an opinion against Raider rework because I can somewhat handle him with a bit of prediction, adaptation and pre-fight planning. But now that you brought him up, he's a Vanguard and he's supposed to be an 'Easy' hero, having a bit of all other classes combined and balanced within himself. So until now at least his moveset makes sense to me, as do Warden's and Kensei's.

But really, if you don't want everyone to be bashy, or have soft-feints/HA everywhere but still keep them at least viable, there's something to be done about block. If you nerf blocking, then there's at least some value in initiating attacks even with the weakest, most reactable move. But until that happens (which I doubt it ever will), it's best that we stop asking for all things to be reactable in this game.

Orochi has 500ms lights with exception of middle light in chain being 400, and cent is second worst char in game because literally everything is reactable that he has, he's just bit better aramusha but that doesnt say much

I brought forth Orochi and Cent because they are also the very example of "everything reactable" that I'm trying to address here. Look how well they fare.

[Jemppa]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HagaH:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Jemppa:

Orochi has 500ms lights with exception of middle light in chain being 400, and cent is second worst char in game because literally everything is reactable that he has, he's just bit better aramusha but that doesnt say much

I brought forth Orochi and Cent because they are also the very example of "everything reactable" that I'm trying to address here. Look how well they fare.

Tru dat #buffincredibili

[76561198048978863]

The problem is not unreactable moves. The problem is OP unreactable moves. Some unreactable moves can stay unreactable after massive nerfs. For example: Warden's shoulderbash doesn't need 3 timings(uncharged, partially charged and fully charged) to be unreactable. It would be unreactable even if it wasn't chargeable.

[Axel]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HagaH:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

All heroes should either be reactable or not reactable.

Not this horrendous system we have now where some heroes don't have unreactable attacks and some heroes unreactable attacks net up to 40 damage and others a single light.

I preferred the turtle meta because as jmoyano has said it at least required some skill to be able to parry consistently. These days the skill level is being dumbed down and you've got heroes like Warden carrying their players because of his horrendously designed mixup. This is why you end up with Highlanders spamming kick into grab, BP's spamming bash, Raiders spamming stunning tap, Warlords spamming crashing charge unlock and gladiators spamming zone... I could continue.

Not all of these make said heroes unbeatable but it makes the game incredibly repetitive and frustrating when a lower skilled player destroys you because you guessed wrong.

My question to you is do you want everyone constantly attacking each other spamming the same safe moves until one runs out of stamina or dies? Only being dictated by how powerful each heroes said mixup is?

Nearly all of Kensei's kit is reactable, apart from his top bash which only nets a light and is awkward to spam, he is one of the most balanced heroes in the game and does perfectly well. Why can't we have heroes balanced similarly instead of high damage or low stamina cost 50/50's.

Turtle meta was only a thing for high level players and the majority would never be affected that much by it. I only ever ran into a handful of turtles in my 1000+ hours between PC and PS4 but today I run into people spamming their safest move repeatedly in every single match, sometimes losing because I guessed wrong.

Another side effect of this is that PS4 and Xbox players have been left completely in the dust and it's an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show playing on those platforms now.

"Nearly all of Kensei's kit is reactable," Which is why he isn't as good or balance as you think. If you keep blocking/dodging/hitting him out of hix mixups until he stops attacking, what can he do to you? And if you're playing someone with a superior offense, he's dead. He's on the weaker side of the roster atm.

I agree that all heroes should be somewhat unreactable, but that's not what many people around here want. They want to be able to react to everything. I doubt they have any idea when it comes to designing a PvP melee-focused combat game. This is not a single-player game where the enemies are supposed to lose to you so you can proceed. Both sides need something they can use to win the fight, you can't punish a player for even trying to attack, and reward the one sitting there waiting for his enemy to make a mistake, that's counter-productive in a combat-oriented game.

And stop blaming "high level players" for the turtle meta. There's no stopping a rep 10 player if he ever decides to turtle, you don't need some 100hrs into the game to realize how strong blocking is. I beat the first Orochi in Duel when I was rep 8 or something, simply by blocking his starting light/heavy until he stopped and then whacked him off with the pre-rework Raider's axe.

There is something stopping a rep 10 player... SKILL. If he develops the skills to block and parry attacks then he has earnt that. How is him abusing Wardens SB requiring any more skill than that? This does in fact result in very low skilled players being carried and never actually learning anything because they just use the safest and easiest mixup they can. True turtles were only common in high level play.

[There'sNoStringOnMe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HagaH:

"Nearly all of Kensei's kit is reactable," Which is why he isn't as good or balance as you think. If you keep blocking/dodging/hitting him out of hix mixups until he stops attacking, what can he do to you? And if you're playing someone with a superior offense, he's dead. He's on the weaker side of the roster atm.

I agree that all heroes should be somewhat unreactable, but that's not what many people around here want. They want to be able to react to everything. I doubt they have any idea when it comes to designing a PvP melee-focused combat game. This is not a single-player game where the enemies are supposed to lose to you so you can proceed. Both sides need something they can use to win the fight, you can't punish a player for even trying to attack, and reward the one sitting there waiting for his enemy to make a mistake, that's counter-productive in a combat-oriented game.

And stop blaming "high level players" for the turtle meta. There's no stopping a rep 10 player if he ever decides to turtle, you don't need some 100hrs into the game to realize how strong blocking is. I beat the first Orochi in Duel when I was rep 8 or something, simply by blocking his starting light/heavy until he stopped and then whacked him off with the pre-rework Raider's axe.

There is something stopping a rep 10 player... SKILL. If he develops the skills to block and parry attacks then he has earnt that. How is him abusing Wardens SB requiring any more skill than that? True turtles were only common in high level play.

Sure, there's so much skill of me back then when I simply moved my right stick to match and block all of that Orochi's attacks, heavies and lights alike. I'm flattered.

And I almost forgot, we're going off topic. What do YOU do if you're playing that Orochi tho? Without your 400ms chain light and Storm Rush too, because they're both unreactable and you don't want that in your game.

[Stret]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jmoyano92:

At least turtle style requires some skill...

Yeah it takes a lot of skill to react to PERFECTLY REACTABLE moves

[Stret]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HagaH:

"Nearly all of Kensei's kit is reactable," Which is why he isn't as good or balance as you think. If you keep blocking/dodging/hitting him out of hix mixups until he stops attacking, what can he do to you? And if you're playing someone with a superior offense, he's dead. He's on the weaker side of the roster atm.

I agree that all heroes should be somewhat unreactable, but that's not what many people around here want. They want to be able to react to everything. I doubt they have any idea when it comes to designing a PvP melee-focused combat game. This is not a single-player game where the enemies are supposed to lose to you so you can proceed. Both sides need something they can use to win the fight, you can't punish a player for even trying to attack, and reward the one sitting there waiting for his enemy to make a mistake, that's counter-productive in a combat-oriented game.

And stop blaming "high level players" for the turtle meta. There's no stopping a rep 10 player if he ever decides to turtle, you don't need some 100hrs into the game to realize how strong blocking is. I beat the first Orochi in Duel when I was rep 8 or something, simply by blocking his starting light/heavy until he stopped and then whacked him off with the pre-rework Raider's axe.

There is something stopping a rep 10 player... SKILL. If he develops the skills to block and parry attacks then he has earnt that. How is him abusing Wardens SB requiring any more skill than that? This does in fact result in very low skilled players being carried and never actually learning anything because they just use the safest and easiest mixup they can. True turtles were only common in high level play.

Because the warden is making reads. Warden's SB is not an instawin button

If you think it is i want to duel your warden.

[Stret]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°):

The problem is not unreactable moves. The problem is OP unreactable moves. Some unreactable moves can stay unreactable after massive nerfs. For example: Warden's shoulderbash doesn't need 3 timings(uncharged, partially charged and fully charged) to be unreactable. It would be unreactable even if it wasn't chargeable.

no not really

[Stret]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

All heroes should either be reactable or not reactable.

Not this horrendous system we have now where some heroes don't have unreactable attacks and some heroes unreactable attacks net up to 40 damage and others a single light.

I preferred the turtle meta because as jmoyano has said it at least required some skill to be able to parry consistently. These days the skill level is being dumbed down and you've got heroes like Warden carrying their players because of his horrendously designed mixup. This is why you end up with Highlanders spamming kick into grab, BP's spamming bash, Raiders spamming stunning tap, Warlords spamming crashing charge unlock and gladiators spamming zone... I could continue.

Not all of these make said heroes unbeatable but it makes the game incredibly repetitive and frustrating when a lower skilled player destroys you because you guessed wrong.

My question to you is do you want everyone constantly attacking each other spamming the same safe moves until one runs out of stamina or dies? Only being dictated by how powerful each heroes said mixup is?

Nearly all of Kensei's kit is reactable, apart from his top bash which only nets a light and is awkward to spam, he is one of the most balanced heroes in the game and does perfectly well. Why can't we have heroes balanced similarly instead of high damage or low stamina cost 50/50's.

Turtle meta was only a thing for high level players and the majority would never be affected that much by it. I only ever ran into a handful of turtles in my 1000+ hours between PC and PS4 ( and when I mean turtles I mean an actual turtle and not just defensive players being name called) but today I run into people spamming their safest move repeatedly in every single match, sometimes losing because I guessed wrong. People forget that one of the best components of a turtle is a safe move.

Another side effect of this is that PS4 and Xbox players have been left completely in the dust and it's an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show playing on those platforms now.

You cant spam unreactable moves. You see all unreactable moves are telegraphed in some way

Its an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show in console because console is known for having quite worse players than PC.

Console and PS4 for the competitive community is just like SA and Australia for PC

[SnusHead]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stret1311:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

All heroes should either be reactable or not reactable.

Not this horrendous system we have now where some heroes don't have unreactable attacks and some heroes unreactable attacks net up to 40 damage and others a single light.

I preferred the turtle meta because as jmoyano has said it at least required some skill to be able to parry consistently. These days the skill level is being dumbed down and you've got heroes like Warden carrying their players because of his horrendously designed mixup. This is why you end up with Highlanders spamming kick into grab, BP's spamming bash, Raiders spamming stunning tap, Warlords spamming crashing charge unlock and gladiators spamming zone... I could continue.

Not all of these make said heroes unbeatable but it makes the game incredibly repetitive and frustrating when a lower skilled player destroys you because you guessed wrong.

My question to you is do you want everyone constantly attacking each other spamming the same safe moves until one runs out of stamina or dies? Only being dictated by how powerful each heroes said mixup is?

Nearly all of Kensei's kit is reactable, apart from his top bash which only nets a light and is awkward to spam, he is one of the most balanced heroes in the game and does perfectly well. Why can't we have heroes balanced similarly instead of high damage or low stamina cost 50/50's.

Turtle meta was only a thing for high level players and the majority would never be affected that much by it. I only ever ran into a handful of turtles in my 1000+ hours between PC and PS4 ( and when I mean turtles I mean an actual turtle and not just defensive players being name called) but today I run into people spamming their safest move repeatedly in every single match, sometimes losing because I guessed wrong. People forget that one of the best components of a turtle is a safe move.

Another side effect of this is that PS4 and Xbox players have been left completely in the dust and it's an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show playing on those platforms now.

You cant spam unreactable moves. You see all unreactable moves are telegraphed in some way

Its an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show in console because console is known for having quite worse players than PC.

Console and PS4 for the competitive community is just like SA and Australia for PC

Wouldn't exactly say they have worse players.
They just have 30 fps.

I watched some of the #1 console players duel each other and to be quiet frank i think i could beat them.
But that's only because they have less time to react

[Stret]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Forsen makes me wet:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stret1311:

You cant spam unreactable moves. You see all unreactable moves are telegraphed in some way

Its an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show in console because console is known for having quite worse players than PC.

Console and PS4 for the competitive community is just like SA and Australia for PC

Wouldn't exactly say they have worse players.
They just have 30 fps.

I watched some of the #1 console players duel each other and to be quiet frank i think i could beat them.
But that's only because they have less time to react

30fps? Wow a 33ms difference

Maybe because ranked at console is... well. Ranked at console

[SnusHead]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stret1311:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Forsen makes me wet:

Wouldn't exactly say they have worse players.
They just have 30 fps.

I watched some of the #1 console players duel each other and to be quiet frank i think i could beat them.
But that's only because they have less time to react

30fps? Wow a 33ms difference

Maybe because ranked at console is... well. Ranked at console

I can just speak from experience.
An event patch a few months ago led to fps drops in my game and suddenly i was unable to block like 80% of lights assassins threw at me lul

Good thing that event was over after 3 days or so

[Axel]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von HagaH:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

There is something stopping a rep 10 player... SKILL. If he develops the skills to block and parry attacks then he has earnt that. How is him abusing Wardens SB requiring any more skill than that? True turtles were only common in high level play.

Sure, there's so much skill of me back then when I simply moved my right stick to match and block all of that Orochi's attacks, heavies and lights alike. I'm flattered.

And I almost forgot, we're going off topic. What do YOU do if you're playing that Orochi tho? Without your 400ms chain light and Storm Rush too, because they're both unreactable and you don't want that in your game.

Didn't say I never wanted that in the game. I said either give every hero unreactable attacks or don't, and if you do make them balanced throughout.

[Axel]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stret1311:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

There is something stopping a rep 10 player... SKILL. If he develops the skills to block and parry attacks then he has earnt that. How is him abusing Wardens SB requiring any more skill than that? This does in fact result in very low skilled players being carried and never actually learning anything because they just use the safest and easiest mixup they can. True turtles were only common in high level play.

Because the warden is making reads. Warden's SB is not an instawin button

If you think it is i want to duel your warden.

Of course it's not an "instawin button" but it's an extremely unbalanced and poorly thought out mixup that cannot be countered using skill but by a guess.

[Axel]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Stret1311:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Axel:

All heroes should either be reactable or not reactable.

Not this horrendous system we have now where some heroes don't have unreactable attacks and some heroes unreactable attacks net up to 40 damage and others a single light.

I preferred the turtle meta because as jmoyano has said it at least required some skill to be able to parry consistently. These days the skill level is being dumbed down and you've got heroes like Warden carrying their players because of his horrendously designed mixup. This is why you end up with Highlanders spamming kick into grab, BP's spamming bash, Raiders spamming stunning tap, Warlords spamming crashing charge unlock and gladiators spamming zone... I could continue.

Not all of these make said heroes unbeatable but it makes the game incredibly repetitive and frustrating when a lower skilled player destroys you because you guessed wrong.

My question to you is do you want everyone constantly attacking each other spamming the same safe moves until one runs out of stamina or dies? Only being dictated by how powerful each heroes said mixup is?

Nearly all of Kensei's kit is reactable, apart from his top bash which only nets a light and is awkward to spam, he is one of the most balanced heroes in the game and does perfectly well. Why can't we have heroes balanced similarly instead of high damage or low stamina cost 50/50's.

Turtle meta was only a thing for high level players and the majority would never be affected that much by it. I only ever ran into a handful of turtles in my 1000+ hours between PC and PS4 ( and when I mean turtles I mean an actual turtle and not just defensive players being name called) but today I run into people spamming their safest move repeatedly in every single match, sometimes losing because I guessed wrong. People forget that one of the best components of a turtle is a safe move.

Another side effect of this is that PS4 and Xbox players have been left completely in the dust and it's an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show playing on those platforms now.

You cant spam unreactable moves. You see all unreactable moves are telegraphed in some way

Its an absolute ♥♥♥♥ show in console because console is known for having quite worse players than PC.

Console and PS4 for the competitive community is just like SA and Australia for PC

How are unreactable moves telegraphed?

That wouldn't make them unreactable...