Why Raider is Poorly Designed

[Viable_Golem4375]

So I have been meaning to do this for a while now. Note that this is not a Raider OP post (although I do consider him to be unbalanced but that's besides the point sort of), this post is explaining why his actual design sucks horribly which I believe to be the case for a few different reasons.

Damage

Ok so lets start off with the elephant in the room, the mans damage. Firstly, who at ubi looked at this and went, "Yep looks fine." Believe me I like this dev team more than most it seems but I really have no clue how these values made it into the live game. Now onto the main issues with these damage numbers, firstly it way outclasses literally everyone else except sort of Highlander but he's slow af compared to Raider, all this does is make fighting him a chore as one mistake means a third of your health is gone, reduced to atoms, which brings me to my second point, no matter who you play, you're dead in 3-4 hits. It's almost irrelevant how much HP your hero has when fighting a Raider as whether it's Shin Boy or LB you die in around 3-4 hits. Idk about everyone else, but when a heroes damage gets so high that legit the entire HP stat is irrelevant then we have a problem.

Why He Encourages Too Much Turtling

This imo is the main reason I hate this character so much, he encourages you to stand there and do absolutely nothing but counter his attacks. Now to address the positives for a moment, I like that Raider can attack, believe me, that was a step in the right direction compared to old Raider and I wish all heroes could attack as well as he can. But the way they chose to give him this ability was downright horrendous, mostly because you can't even get an attack in. Seriously if you even try swinging literally anything you're either going to get lighted/stun tapped out of it, GBed out of it or make a really bad losing trade with ya know the most fair and balanced HA startup in the game (300ms on second heavy, 100ms on finishers). Like there are so many different things you have to make reads on just to do anything that actually landing a hit that isn't off of a punish is incredibly difficult. And now for the other side of this, Raider's neutral attack besides lights are very slow and lack HA making them somewhat easy to interrupt, so you know what that means? the best strategy when dealing with Raider is just light/zone interrupt any opener besides lights and try your best to parry any light that comes your way, this is 100% not the way I like playing and also what I would assume to be not fun for others as well.

Animations

Simply put wtf happened here? Like animations in general look really good in this game, and then there's Raider. Ya can't just make it faster without also making the animation look natural with the speed, right now he just looks like he's skipping frames on most of his attacks. This is only half the issue though, something I realized while playing the story mode recently, Raider has terrible animations even before but nobody noticed because who actually threw moves with Raider? What needs to happen here is his entire kit needs to be re-animated to make him look natural.

The Grab

Let me preface this with the fact that this move alone is probably my second least favorite thing in For Honor currently. Running cc bashes have 0 place in a game where ledging and ganking exist. It is neither fun, nor fair, nor skill based in any way to have Raiders kiting people in ganks with grabs that they can't even see and either throwing them off of a cliff or putting them on a wall/on the ground letting their team get 423 top heavies off on you melting all of your HP instantly. On another side note, does the tracking on this move really have to be this good? Like seriously no other running bash has like any tracking whatsoever but this one has like the tightest dodge timing for some reason leading to this move landing when it really shouldn't.

Stun

This seems to be the main reason many hate Raider so much and I sort of see why, again it isn't exactly a fun experience being blinded repeatedly which is exactly my point with this, if one of a characters main tools is just making you blind so you can't see what he's doing, the character isn't well designed at all, it's just that people can't tell what he's doing so they can't make a correct read as they don't even know what they're trying to read in the first place. A character should function because their mix ups are well thought out and function well, not because people can't actually see the mix up.

Stamina Drain

I could put this under the whole turtling thing but I felt as if it needed its own section. Aggressive stamina drain is dumb and shouldn't exist as all it does is encourage more turtling. Now I will hand it to ubi that this issue with Raider is far more tame than on release (stun tap putting you at 20 stamina big think) but he still drains far more than he has any business doing.

The Overall Balance of Raider

This is why I said his current state of balance was besides the point sort of, not entirely as I think this plays a large part in why he's such a big issue. Characters with wack win rates like this across the board in all modes, and against all skill levels are bad for a lot of reasons, but mainly because it just drives people away from the game which already has a small-ish player base. Like the last thing we want is a character that just single-handedly makes people straight up quit as that's just not good for anybody involved.

This is just my opinion on the character, any discussion around it is appreciated.

[Amon]

He is not poorly designed actually. He is what good offense is like but he is waay extreme at his current state thanks to his animations and damage which both need decent nerfing

[Viable_Golem4375]

Originally posted by Amon:

He is not poorly designed actually. He is what good offense is like but he is waay extreme at his current state thanks to his animations and damage which both need decent nerfing

As I said in the post, I like that he can attack, that part is good, but how he does it is bad.

[Amon]

Originally posted by Viable_Golem4375:

Originally posted by Amon:

He is not poorly designed actually. He is what good offense is like but he is waay extreme at his current state thanks to his animations and damage which both need decent nerfing

As I said in the post, I like that he can attack, that part is good, but how he does it is bad.

Exactly

[Robert Zerker]

This ^ deserves the Ubi's team attention.

And my personnal "seal of huge approval".

[Amon]

Originally posted by Robert Zerker:

This ^ deserves the Ubi's team attention.

And my personnal "seal of huge approval".

It has been months and they did nothing

[Tommy]

Raider is not poorly designed he is kind of like BP he has some moves but people choose to go with the easy way and spam stunning taps and shield bashes.

Hito or Shinobi for an example are poor designed heroes.

[Amon]

Originally posted by Tommy:

Raider is not poorly designed he is kind of like BP he has some moves but people choose to go with the easy way and spam stunning taps and shield bashes.

Hito or Shinobi for an example are poor designed heroes.

All his moves are easy moves lol he doesnt have any complex moves

[Viable_Golem4375]

Originally posted by Tommy:

Raider is not poorly designed he is kind of like BP he has some moves but people choose to go with the easy way and spam stunning taps and shield bashes.

Hito or Shinobi for an example are poor designed heroes.

Hito is well designed except for the hyper armor, Shinobi yeah he's a complete mess and as far as Raider, what complex moves does he have?

[Lost and Damned]

stop playing bad heroes

[Amon]

Originally posted by Lost and Damned:

stop playing bad heroes

There should be no bad heroes or broken ones to begin with so that comment doesnt help anyone...

[Viable_Golem4375]

Originally posted by Lost and Damned:

stop playing bad heroes

I legit play 15 different heroes lmao, I have experienced fights with Raider as all tiers of character.

[Tommy]

Originally posted by Amon:

Originally posted by Tommy:

Raider is not poorly designed he is kind of like BP he has some moves but people choose to go with the easy way and spam stunning taps and shield bashes.

Hito or Shinobi for an example are poor designed heroes.

All his moves are easy moves lol he doesnt have any complex moves

What other easy moves Raider has?
The knee? It’s not op anymore they nerfed it lol.

[Tommy]

Originally posted by Viable_Golem4375:

Originally posted by Tommy:

Raider is not poorly designed he is kind of like BP he has some moves but people choose to go with the easy way and spam stunning taps and shield bashes.

Hito or Shinobi for an example are poor designed heroes.

Hito is well designed except for the hyper armor, Shinobi yeah he's a complete mess and as far as Raider, what complex moves does he have?

“Hito is well designed”
Cmon man...
Even without the hyper armor she still has a garbage and stupid moveset.
And lets not talk about her broken leg kick thing that she can feint when ever she wants.
In other words Hito is a brain dead hero.

[Nox]

Originally posted by Viable_Golem4375:

So I have been meaning to do this for a while now. Note that this is not a Raider OP post (although I do consider him to be unbalanced but that's besides the point sort of), this post is explaining why his actual design sucks horribly which I believe to be the case for a few different reasons.

Damage

Ok so lets start off with the elephant in the room, the mans damage. Firstly, who at ubi looked at this and went, "Yep looks fine." Believe me I like this dev team more than most it seems but I really have no clue how these values made it into the live game. Now onto the main issues with these damage numbers, firstly it way outclasses literally everyone else except sort of Highlander but he's slow af compared to Raider, all this does is make fighting him a chore as one mistake means a third of your health is gone, reduced to atoms, which brings me to my second point, no matter who you play, you're dead in 3-4 hits. It's almost irrelevant how much HP your hero has when fighting a Raider as whether it's Shin Boy or LB you die in around 3-4 hits. Idk about everyone else, but when a heroes damage gets so high that legit the entire HP stat is irrelevant then we have a problem.

Why He Encourages Too Much Turtling

This imo is the main reason I hate this character so much, he encourages you to stand there and do absolutely nothing but counter his attacks. Now to address the positives for a moment, I like that Raider can attack, believe me, that was a step in the right direction compared to old Raider and I wish all heroes could attack as well as he can. But the way they chose to give him this ability was downright horrendous, mostly because you can't even get an attack in. Seriously if you even try swinging literally anything you're either going to get lighted/stun tapped out of it, GBed out of it or make a really bad losing trade with ya know the most fair and balanced HA startup in the game (300ms on second heavy, 100ms on finishers). Like there are so many different things you have to make reads on just to do anything that actually landing a hit that isn't off of a punish is incredibly difficult. And now for the other side of this, Raider's neutral attack besides lights are very slow and lack HA making them somewhat easy to interrupt, so you know what that means? the best strategy when dealing with Raider is just light/zone interrupt any opener besides lights and try your best to parry any light that comes your way, this is 100% not the way I like playing and also what I would assume to be not fun for others as well.

Animations

Simply put wtf happened here? Like animations in general look really good in this game, and then there's Raider. Ya can't just make it faster without also making the animation look natural with the speed, right now he just looks like he's skipping frames on most of his attacks. This is only half the issue though, something I realized while playing the story mode recently, Raider has terrible animations even before but nobody noticed because who actually threw moves with Raider? What needs to happen here is his entire kit needs to be re-animated to make him look natural.

The Grab

Let me preface this with the fact that this move alone is probably my second least favorite thing in For Honor currently. Running cc bashes have 0 place in a game where ledging and ganking exist. It is neither fun, nor fair, nor skill based in any way to have Raiders kiting people in ganks with grabs that they can't even see and either throwing them off of a cliff or putting them on a wall/on the ground letting their team get 423 top heavies off on you melting all of your HP instantly. On another side note, does the tracking on this move really have to be this good? Like seriously no other running bash has like any tracking whatsoever but this one has like the tightest dodge timing for some reason leading to this move landing when it really shouldn't.

Stun

This seems to be the main reason many hate Raider so much and I sort of see why, again it isn't exactly a fun experience being blinded repeatedly which is exactly my point with this, if one of a characters main tools is just making you blind so you can't see what he's doing, the character isn't well designed at all, it's just that people can't tell what he's doing so they can't make a correct read as they don't even know what they're trying to read in the first place. A character should function because their mix ups are well thought out and function well, not because people can't actually see the mix up.

Stamina Drain

I could put this under the whole turtling thing but I felt as if it needed its own section. Aggressive stamina drain is dumb and shouldn't exist as all it does is encourage more turtling. Now I will hand it to ubi that this issue with Raider is far more tame than on release (stun tap putting you at 20 stamina big think) but he still drains far more than he has any business doing.

The Overall Balance of Raider

This is why I said his current state of balance was besides the point sort of, not entirely as I think this plays a large part in why he's such a big issue. Characters with wack win rates like this across the board in all modes, and against all skill levels are bad for a lot of reasons, but mainly because it just drives people away from the game which already has a small-ish player base. Like the last thing we want is a character that just single-handedly makes people straight up quit as that's just not good for anybody involved.

This is just my opinion on the character, any discussion around it is appreciated.

Can't agree more with you on this, I mean 48 Ha heavy, even hitokiri does not have it, If ignore The feat.

They need to do something, and Quick.

[shower speedrunner]

>Why He Encourages Too Much Turtling

Kinda wrong.
If you stand there, turtle, you gonna die real quick.
Remember HA on Raider only starts on chain, mean if you shut down Raider from the start, there will be no HA for Raider.

>Stun
>Stamina Drain

"Glad is broken" thread next?