Cultural Appropriation

[Fifth]

Am i the only one that finds it annoying and a bit too far of a leap for there to be black vikings and black samurai, and black knights in this game? I understand the game isn't trying to be a 100 percent accurate historical title, so most people should give it leeway when it comes to things such as vikings with horns and (maybe) female warriors, but even i feel that BLACK vikings and samurai are just silly, unnecessary and annoying to anyone who values historicity even a little bit, and even the game devs have came out and said that they are proud of making their game diverse even though it quite obviously doesn't fit into a title like this.


"It's so easy for people to say, 'Oh, it couldn't be true, they couldn't have full gender representation and different ethnicities in a game like this.' So we put a lot of time and effort into that, and it's a core value on the team, and a list of things I'm proud of."
- For Honor creative director Jason VandenBerghe.

[BatBox]

Originally posted by Toutatrix:

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

fictional universe kiddo, if this was supposed to be accurate then yes. But its not, they've said it multiple times. Why are u fine with female warriors but not black people? In all three cultures (Europe, Scandanavia, Japan) it was forbidden for women to fight and they were viewed as property. Women make much less sense than black people, but its a fictional universe so all is k.

Black men probably would've been treated different in these 3 cultures (although its impossible to know because there werent any at all until muich later in history). In the FICTIONAL world of For Honor, a world of constant and desperate warfare, I'm certain the 3 factions don't care at all (especially the Vikings who's supreme code is strength) who wields a sword, so long as its used against their enemies.

Personally I have way more issues with samurais added into the game than women warriors (women were fighting in vikings culture, female knights were not that impossible assuming you don't have an army of them and naginata were definitely a female weapon, also orochi are ninjas and ninjas had no honor, thus no gender exclusive) or black vikings since they have spread up to africa and a slave could become a viking.

yeah no, female vikings was never a thing. In viking culture u are given no name on ur grave unless u were a MAN who dies fighting or a WOMAN who died in childbirth, reflecting upon their culture and gender roles. Women maintain the homes and men fought for glory to honour the gods. If a woman was to be found trying to fight she would often be executed. Modern media forms like to depict viking women as free and hearty (like the History Channel show Vikings) but in reality they were very oppressed and forced into their roles in society. There have a been a few cases of female warriors in Viking culture, but no mroe than Europeans did with St. Joan of Arc.

Ninjas did have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ honor, most of them were Samurai clans and the rest were farmers who served their warlord with unwavering and brutal loyalty. To dishonor your clan was punishable by death, just as the rest of the Samurai.

Also i updated my post so u should read it more.

[Agrorix]

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

Originally posted by Toutatrix:

Personally I have way more issues with samurais added into the game than women warriors (women were fighting in vikings culture, female knights were not that impossible assuming you don't have an army of them and naginata were definitely a female weapon, also orochi are ninjas and ninjas had no honor, thus no gender exclusive) or black vikings since they have spread up to africa and a slave could become a viking.

yeah no, female vikings was never a thing. In viking culture u are born without a name on ur grave unless u were a MAN who dies fighting or a WOMAN who died in childbirth, reflecting upon their culture and gender roles. Women maintain the homes and men fought for glory to honour the gods. If a woman was to be found trying to fight she would often be executed. Modern media forms like to depict viking women as free and hearty (like the History Channel show Vikings) but in reality they were very oppressed and forced into their roles in society. There have a been a few cases of female warriors in Viking culture, but no mroe than Europeans did with St. Joan of Arc.

Ninjas did have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ honor, most of them were Samurai clans and the rest were farmers who served their warlord with unwavering and brutal loyalty.

Also i updated my post so u should read it more.

I'm amazed of such an accurate "knowledge" since we barely know a thing about vikings but through the eyes of other cultures having fought them for they were an oral tradition barely writing anyting culture. Curious to know from where you took such precise certainty about vikings culture, not to mention scandinavians were differents from norway or swedish vikings of course...

[BatBox]

Originally posted by Toutatrix:

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

yeah no, female vikings was never a thing. In viking culture u are born without a name on ur grave unless u were a MAN who dies fighting or a WOMAN who died in childbirth, reflecting upon their culture and gender roles. Women maintain the homes and men fought for glory to honour the gods. If a woman was to be found trying to fight she would often be executed. Modern media forms like to depict viking women as free and hearty (like the History Channel show Vikings) but in reality they were very oppressed and forced into their roles in society. There have a been a few cases of female warriors in Viking culture, but no mroe than Europeans did with St. Joan of Arc.

Ninjas did have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ honor, most of them were Samurai clans and the rest were farmers who served their warlord with unwavering and brutal loyalty.

Also i updated my post so u should read it more.

I'm amazed of such an accurate "knowledge" since we barely know a thing about vikings but through the eyes of other cultures having fought them for they were an oral tradition barely writing anyting culture. Curious to know from where you took such precise certainty about vikings culture, not to mention scandinavians were differents from norway or swedish vikings of course...

my friend, it is one, just one, simple google search to not embarrass urself any further. I'll do it for u. http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/women.htm http://www.history.com/news/what-was-life-like-for-women-in-the-viking-age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shieldmaiden

There are very, VERY, few accounts of female fighters in Norse culture. And most cases are viewed as culteral story sagas that are entirely fictional. Women had reign over the house but onlyt the house.

Dude... Scandanavia isnt a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ country. Its the name of the land that refers to Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and sometimes Finland. Its literally the term used to describe Viking homeland.

[sigrud_ds]

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

my friend, it is one, just one, simple google search to not embarrass urself any further.

It also requires you to actually read those article; they seem to contradict your previous post a bit.

[Rübe]

These crap it's all about political correctness

[BatBox]

Originally posted by sigrud_ds:

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

my friend, it is one, just one, simple google search to not embarrass urself any further.

It also requires you to actually read those article; they seem to contradict your previous post a bit.

did u read it? They said, just as i said, that womens roles in norse society were very defined and forced. Women did NOT fight, except for a few odd and extreme cases and most of them are cinsidered to be fictional sagas. Norse society was male dominated and the instances were women fought were very few and far between. I dont have any issue with women in For Honor (since its fictional, as in, not real) but there are far worse issues of historica innaccuracy than black vikings and knights.

[sigrud_ds]

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

Originally posted by sigrud_ds:

It also requires you to actually read those article; they seem to contradict your previous post a bit.

did u read it? They said, just as i said, that womens roles in norse society were very defined and forced. Women did NOT fight, except for a few odd and extreme cases and most of them are cinsidered to be fictional sagas. Norse society was male dominated and the instances were women fought were very few and far between. I dont have any issue with women in For Honor (since its fictional, as in, not real) but there are far worse issues of historica innaccuracy than black vikings and knights.

Yes I did, I read all the way not just pick and choose what I wanted to see. In the Wiki for Shield maiden for example the top say mythilogical but if you read the whole thing further down in the Historical accounts section, it says women did in fact fight with the men.

"There are few historic attestations that Viking Age women took part in warfare,[6] but the Byzantine historian John Skylitzes records that women fought in battle when Sviatoslav I of Kiev attacked the Byzantines in Bulgaria in 971.[6] When the Varangians (not to be confused with the Byzantine Varangian Guard) had suffered a devastating defeat in the Siege of Dorostolon, the victors were stunned at discovering armed women among the fallen warriors"

Then you can read further down in the archeology section, where it say women were buried with weapon like the men.

You need to learn what traditional and essential mean; you said there were no Viking Women period, this is not true, you also said they in basic words had no power, also not true. Were there armies of Viking women, no, but where there Viking women fighting along side men; read for yourself.

[BatBox]

Originally posted by sigrud_ds:

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

did u read it? They said, just as i said, that womens roles in norse society were very defined and forced. Women did NOT fight, except for a few odd and extreme cases and most of them are cinsidered to be fictional sagas. Norse society was male dominated and the instances were women fought were very few and far between. I dont have any issue with women in For Honor (since its fictional, as in, not real) but there are far worse issues of historica innaccuracy than black vikings and knights.

Yes I did, I read all the way not just pick and choose what I wanted to see. In the Wiki for Shield maiden for example the top say mythilogical but if you read the whole thing further down in the Historical accounts section, it says women did in fact fight with the men.

"There are few historic attestations that Viking Age women took part in warfare,[6] but the Byzantine historian John Skylitzes records that women fought in battle when Sviatoslav I of Kiev attacked the Byzantines in Bulgaria in 971.[6] When the Varangians (not to be confused with the Byzantine Varangian Guard) had suffered a devastating defeat in the Siege of Dorostolon, the victors were stunned at discovering armed women among the fallen warriors"

Then you can read further down in the archeology section, where it say women were buried with weapon like the men.

You need to learn what traditional and essential mean; you said there were no Viking Women period, this is not true, you also said they in basic words had no power, also not true. Were there armies of Viking women, no, but where there Viking women fighting along side men; read for yourself.

"Although our sources of information are limited, it's clear that the roles of men and women in Norse society were quite distinct. Norse society was male dominated. Each gender had a set of expected behaviors, and that line could not be crossed with impunity. I think it just as unlikely that a man would weave cloth as that a woman would participate in a Viking raid. Women did not participate in trading or raiding parties (although they clearly participated in journeys of exploration and settlement to places such as Iceland and Vínland). Women's responsibilities were clearly defined to be domestic. Members of either sex who crossed the gender line were, at very least, ostracized by society. Some cross-gender behaviors were strictly prohibited by law. The medieval Icelandic lawbook Grágás (K 254) prohibits women from wearing men's clothes, from cutting their hair short, or from carrying weapons."

"On one hand, a woman was, by law, under the authority of her husband or father. She had only limited freedom to dispose of property belonging to her. She was prohibited from participating in most political or governmental activities. She could not be a goði (chieftain). She could not be a judge. She could not be a witness. She could not speak at þing (assemblies)."

"Technically, women couldn’t even be Vikings. As Judith Jesch, author of “Women in the Viking Age” (1991), has pointed out, the Old Norse word “vikingar” only applied to men, usually to those men who embarked from Scandinavia in their famous long boats and sailed to such far-flung places as Britain, Europe, Russia, the North Atlantic islands and North America between roughly A.D. 800-1100."

Like I said, there was never such a thing as a female Viking, the term only applied to men. In fact there is no such thing as "viking culture" its norse culture. Viking is a term used to describe the sea-raiders who formed war parties and sailed to distant lands to conquer and plunder, which were ofcourse all male (with the exceptions of a few documented migratory parties that carried women for the purpose of populating and settling a new land but werent regarded as "vikings"). There were, however some shield maidens but they were very very rare and their accounts are few and far betweena and often regarded as just historical sagas. Women had one role in Norse society, care for the home and finances. A widow had more rights but that, ofcourse is only applies to women who were already married to a dominant man who happened to die in battle and had no one to take over his household. Norse certainly had more female warriors than other cultures but no where near what society seems to think.

[sigrud_ds]

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

"Technically, women couldn’t even be Vikings. As Judith Jesch, author of “Women in the Viking Age” (1991), has pointed out, the Old Norse word “vikingar” only applied to men, usually to those men who embarked from Scandinavia in their famous long boats and sailed to such far-flung places as Britain, Europe, Russia, the North Atlantic islands and North America between roughly A.D. 800-1100."

Again you didn't finish reading the whole thing...

"Were there female warriors in Viking Age society? Though relatively few historical records mention the role of women in Viking warfare, the Byzantine-era historian Johannes Skylitzes did record women fighting with the Varangian Vikings in a battle against the Bulgarians in A.D. 971. In addition, the 12th-century Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus wrote that communities of “shieldmaidens” dressed like men and devoted themselves to learning swordplay and other warlike skills, and that some 300 of these shieldmaidens held the field in the Battle of Brávellir in the mid-eighth century. In his famous work Gesta Danorum, Saxo wrote of a shieldmaiden named Lagertha, who fought alongside the famous Viking Ragnar Lothbrok in a battle against the Swedes, and so impressed Ragnar with her courage that he sought and won her hand in marriage."

I have spent a good amount of my life researching Vikings as it is part of my heritage and somthing that I am very facinated about. You should look up the Viking Answer Lady; she has spent an extensive amount of time researching, some of which is just her idea founded on bits and pieces of information, but from many sources and not just one or two articles; she definately has done her homework and tries to be as honest as possible, constantly correcting or augmenting her articles when she finds something new, then providing proof of her research. Unfortunately they are very long and can be a bit cryptic so I will not cut and paste pieces, I will leave that to you too read, albeit I am afraid you will find what you want and not finish the read.

There are very few historical documents and archeology findings about Vikings, period, most of the information comes from saga's from others interacting with the Vikings. The only thing we can do is look for consistancies between them and draw a "best" case.

And yes you are correct, technically there is no such thing as Vikings, it was Norsemen but the world knows them as Vikings, so splitting hairs wins you no arguments.

[Frowny]

♥♥♥♥♥ if I can't play as Afro Samurai i'm gonna be right pissed.

[Markus Kruber]

Originally posted by Catholicus:

but even i feel that BLACK vikings and samurai are just silly, unnecessary and annoying to anyone who values historicity even a little bit

It doesn't bother me at all, I don't understand why people make such a huge issue of something that isn't..

If this game tried to be a simulator then I was all with you, but it's just a arcade game with only one purpose: entertainment.

And if you care even a little about history you should be way more bothered that the Samurai are fighting against Vikings and Knights, but instead you only care about skin color :/

[Honest Car Salesman]

I'm black idc about what my character's race is. U barely see their skin anyways.

[Markus Kruber]

Originally posted by Zombie:

I'm black idc about what my character's race is. U barely see their skin anyways.

Depends on the faction and Hero, Vikings show a lot of skin but people really shouldn't be bothered about it because it's nothing more than a game..

[Agrorix]

Originally posted by IVSB Zeroth:

Originally posted by Toutatrix:

I'm amazed of such an accurate "knowledge" since we barely know a thing about vikings but through the eyes of other cultures having fought them for they were an oral tradition barely writing anyting culture. Curious to know from where you took such precise certainty about vikings culture, not to mention scandinavians were differents from norway or swedish vikings of course...

my friend, it is one, just one, simple google search to not embarrass urself any further. I'll do it for u. http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/women.htm http://www.history.com/news/what-was-life-like-for-women-in-the-viking-age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shieldmaiden

There are very, VERY, few accounts of female fighters in Norse culture. And most cases are viewed as culteral story sagas that are entirely fictional. Women had reign over the house but onlyt the house.

Dude... Scandanavia isnt a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ country. Its the name of the land that refers to Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and sometimes Finland. Its literally the term used to describe Viking homeland.

As already mentionned... by me, this link is about only scandinavian "facts" coming from other cultures litterature, and yet it states some shieldmaidens as the important role of women in colonisation thus proving their presence.

Shieldmaidens appearing to have existed is enough to mere not exclude there were some women fighting alongside men in vikings societies. Thing is the author don't know for sure.

Try to read more carefully next time, would avoid to embarass yourself and especially more importantly avoid to make me wasting my time.

[Torbster]

the funny thing is that you can actually customize the gender and race of the characters you play as so there's no need to argue about this at all