Lackluster ascension point gain mechanic

[Arkatar]

Very fun game overall. I think my only gripe with it is how stupid easy it is to leave the game running overnight on stage 1 (not 2, not 10) of a void area and rack up ridiculous amounts of ascension points for literally no effort. Facerolling is only truly fun when hard-earned through wits or effort.

Higher stages need to provide more reward for the effort, and the low effort of lower stages definitely shouldn't blast you through ascension tree progression. This should basically apply to materials, xp, coins, souls, everything.

HTH and can be implemented in some way for the release.

[TheKbob]

Ascension points are gated by tiers. While I haven't tried your strat, the item drops, if only Tier One, will only net Tier 1 ascension points.

The later nodes require multiple Tier 1 points, and deeper require Tier 2+. I don't think there's a way to roll Tier 1 points up to Tier 2.

Edit: I checked, the first Void level Stage 1 only drops Tier 1 items. So you won't be mulching your way to higher Tiers to my knowledge if you idle there all night.

[Arkatar]

That's not the point though. The point is why would you reward more ascension points for running easier content? They die faster yet give the same amount of materials, so why bother with higher stages unless the different materials are needed for crafting/upgrade? (which you don't need all that much of)

I also don't like the linear ascension point gains, makes it trivial to max out an ascension tier.

[TheKbob]

I don't believe it's linear and the gear you get is dependent on multipliers. You'll get more loot rerunning Zone One non-void than Zone One void. Plus, you don't gain any permanent upgrades just running Zone One Void.

There's more to permanent upgrades than just Ascension. I think you're focusing on that one element, which it seems like you figured out the best loop, you likely just hyper focused on that one element.

[Arkatar]

I feel you don't realize how strong ascension upgrades are. You may also not have seen the speed at which materials come in when you practically 1-shot stage 1 void enemies.

Again, the point is that it makes no sense to have stage 1 void progress you through ascension so quickly when it is so easy to clear.

Also, I guess I should explain what I mean by linear point gains. No matter how many ascension points you have of a given tier, you'll always gain 1 per 100k materials. Ultimately this is fine considering the upgrade costs scale decently, but the problem I see is that you max out an ascension tier way too quickly thanks to void stage 1 material gains being basically OP.

Finally, you speak about focusing on that element. I mean, should a game stay wonky because you can't specifically point out what's wonky about it? I see a problem, I report it. What else are you expecting?

[IonDrako]

Originally posted by TheKbob:

You'll get more loot rerunning Zone One non-void than Zone One void.

That is just not true at all. even running the rerun of stage 50 of a normal level nets a decent amount less materials per kill than the void levels that all drop like 200 mats a kill.

I also find it odd though that void levels don't scale drop amount form stage 1 to 10, should go from like 100 to 300+ or something (though I believe xp/gold/soul rates do go up per stage there so it's not like there isn't a reason to farm stage 10s in the void stages).

That said I don't really see it as a problem in full that you can afk on void level 1s to grind mats since there's a hard limit to what each prestige point tier can take on the tree and in the end it's basically all going to be afk mat grinding anyway.

[Arkatar]

Originally posted by IonDrako:

Originally posted by TheKbob:

You'll get more loot rerunning Zone One non-void than Zone One void.

That is just not true at all. even running the rerun of stage 50 of a normal level nets a decent amount less materials per kill than the void levels that all drop like 200 mats a kill.

I also find it odd though that void levels don't scale drop amount form stage 1 to 10, should go from like 100 to 300+ or something (though I believe xp/gold/soul rates do go up per stage there so it's not like there isn't a reason to farm stage 10s in the void stages).

That said I don't really see it as a problem in full that you can afk on void level 1s to grind mats since there's a hard limit to what each prestige point tier can take on the tree and in the end it's basically all going to be afk mat grinding anyway.

I agree with what your saying, except it's unfortunate that I already have ascension tiers 1 and 2 maxed out in the demo in less than 2 days. Doesn't bode well for the longevity of the game unless somehow it opens up massively later.

And note that all those ascension upgrades (and I gotta wonder what it'll look like with the rest of them) made it relatively trivial to clear all demo content, which I already did. All that remains to do right now is max the summon levels and raise stat caps. I'll do the former prior to launch, but the latter will wait, don't wanna trivialize the game even more.

[The Fox Knocks]

The intent is for the game to take a week or two complete. It was never my intention to make an idle game that takes months or years. A nice, medium-length experience that doesn't overstay its welcome is my goal, and when I say medium-length, I'm comparing it to games like Gnorp Apologue and Nodebuster which can be beaten in a day or two.

I didn't want earlier Areas to be super crazy difficult, as I feel this doesn't ease you into the game well. It makes more sense, at least to me, that later Areas get more and more difficult. With this in mind, I didn't want you to need to spend multiple days staying behind farming Tier 1 materials because Tier 1, in general, is a tier you're done with pretty quickly.

There's 3 other sections of the Ascension Tree you do not yet have access to, which also require all of the tiers of the section you have unlocked now, including Tier 1, so maxing out the tree in the demo is only partially what you'd need as you progress.

So, if I made it so enemies of greater difficulty in Tier 1 gave more resources, this would only make it more trivial. Either way it goes you're going to be blitzing through them, regardless if they're Void Stage 1 or Void Stage 10. I've elected instead for all Stages of enemies to provide the same number of materials.

Well, what about Tier 2? Tier 3? Or greater, where the gap between the easiest enemy and the most difficult enemy is even more significant? I feel it's personal preference in terms of design. I simply prefer it to be this way. I don't have a deeper reason. I think the way it is now works, is simple, and still allows the player to get unlocks at a reasonable pace.

[Arkatar]

Fair enough. Just figured maybe if ascension points were gained based on character levels, you wouldn't be able to idle for two days and rack up all the points required for a tier, you'd have to ascend multiple times and it would feel more engaging imho. But if you're really fine with how it is currently, so be it. :)

[TheKbob]

Originally posted by IonDrako:

Originally posted by TheKbob:

You'll get more loot rerunning Zone One non-void than Zone One void.

That is just not true at all. even running the rerun of stage 50 of a normal level nets a decent amount less materials per kill than the void levels that all drop like 200 mats a kill.

I also find it odd though that void levels don't scale drop amount form stage 1 to 10, should go from like 100 to 300+ or something (though I believe xp/gold/soul rates do go up per stage there so it's not like there isn't a reason to farm stage 10s in the void stages).

That said I don't really see it as a problem in full that you can afk on void level 1s to grind mats since there's a hard limit to what each prestige point tier can take on the tree and in the end it's basically all going to be afk mat grinding anyway.

I did not realize each drop was 220 (at least for me). Regardless, there's still more to be obtained than just the ascension points that needs you to complete other sections and achieve other goals.

The drops from the Void feel as much ascension power ups as they are equipment upgrade materials. Makes that process less tedious.

[coolman20012]

Originally posted by The Fox Knocks:

The intent is for the game to take a week or two complete. It was never my intention to make an idle game that takes months or years. A nice, medium-length experience that doesn't overstay its welcome is my goal, and when I say medium-length, I'm comparing it to games like Gnorp Apologue and Nodebuster which can be beaten in a day or two.

I didn't want earlier Areas to be super crazy difficult, as I feel this doesn't ease you into the game well. It makes more sense, at least to me, that later Areas get more and more difficult. With this in mind, I didn't want you to need to spend multiple days staying behind farming Tier 1 materials because Tier 1, in general, is a tier you're done with pretty quickly.

There's 3 other sections of the Ascension Tree you do not yet have access to, which also require all of the tiers of the section you have unlocked now, including Tier 1, so maxing out the tree in the demo is only partially what you'd need as you progress.

So, if I made it so enemies of greater difficulty in Tier 1 gave more resources, this would only make it more trivial. Either way it goes you're going to be blitzing through them, regardless if they're Void Stage 1 or Void Stage 10. I've elected instead for all Stages of enemies to provide the same number of materials.

Well, what about Tier 2? Tier 3? Or greater, where the gap between the easiest enemy and the most difficult enemy is even more significant? I feel it's personal preference in terms of design. I simply prefer it to be this way. I don't have a deeper reason. I think the way it is now works, is simple, and still allows the player to get unlocks at a reasonable pace.

well if things go well, are there plans to expand the world? maybe a connected village you can build up that gives you bonuses or other DLC stuffz?^^

[The Fox Knocks]

Originally posted by coolman20012:

well if things go well, are there plans to expand the world? maybe a connected village you can build up that gives you bonuses or other DLC stuffz?^^

I never promise DLC because I don't want to end up lying to anyone. Post-content is a nebulous topic.

[coolman20012]

well, i do hope for the best. your demo is in the top 10 of most played demos, so i guess that's good^^

[BlueWizardCole]

I cleared stage 1 level 50 and still only have about 50K materials. It feels like the first ascension takes a long time? I am also ignoring equipment upgrades so I can get ascension points.