If only it had Action combat with Skillshots (like Tera)

[Ǵ̶͓̂͑lí̴̤̀̄́tcĥ̸]

Or better yet, Blade and Soul, or Monster Hunter (Tera was a bit too much "click click, click and hold" - I prefer a bit more variance and especially timing rather than just hack-n-slash) it would basically be perfect. Sucks it went with the oldschool tab-targeting MMO style combat. That combat is more about hours grinding and meta builds, which isn't even fun or creative anymore because people will just post the best builds online and everyone will copy them (before, people would spend upwards of years figuring this out - now, internet) - this means skill is out the door, and the only reward is time played and being in the best guild for endgame dungeon runs for the best gear, something a lone player or smaller guild can never accomplish.

Major major bummer.

[The Zombie Collector]

agree

[Lowkey]

Anything that is skill-shot based on a mmo server is open to lag spikes and frustration. Ill take my locked-on targeting.

Did mmo's exist before the internet? Do you mean before you learned you could research builds?

Skill is out the door? Even with the "best build" CC timing and coordination is always skilled based.

If your worried about the "lone player" perspective gear wise, I really think your looking into the wrong genre.

[Ǵ̶͓̂͑lí̴̤̀̄́tcĥ̸]

Every one of your arguments are strawmen.

Open to lag spikes and frustration? Have you ever played Tera? Have you ever played C9? RaiderZ? Your complaint is fallacy, unless your rig and net completely sucks.

Internet wasn't as prevalent in terms of Walkthrough usage and such back in the days of, say, Everquest. People spent years coming up with perfect builds and they took enough pride to keep it to themselves and certain guild members. Nowadays, everyone posts and copies the best builds. This birthed META, which basically equates to you getting annihilated based on gear, not skill. Within weeks, people will have theese builds and you will see nothing but cookie-cutter copies running around winning every PVP due to the type of combat.

CC timing? Please. Timing on number presses is NOT skill, it's simply biding time. AIMING PROPERLY in a skill based game, ALSO requires timing, giving you more to worry about and thus requiring more skill.

There are ways in some games to get the best gear without having to be descriminated against for not being a member of the best possible guilds with pro players busting through the best dungeons over and over again for the best gear. It was tougher back in the day but more rewarding due to the second point about internet, but now? Sorry, but it isn't the same. Games such as ESO are failing because of said discrimination.

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima Online, probably a lot longer than you. I don't need your advice on genres.

[Tytos]

Originally posted by Chillin':

Every one of your arguments are strawmen.

Open to lag spikes and frustration? Have you ever played Tera? Have you ever played C9? RaiderZ? Your complaint is fallacy, unless your rig and net completely sucks.

Internet wasn't as prevalent in terms of Walkthrough usage and such back in the days of, say, Everquest. People spent years coming up with perfect builds and they took enough pride to keep it to themselves and certain guild members. Nowadays, everyone posts and copies the best builds. This birthed META, which basically equates to you getting annihilated based on gear, not skill. Within weeks, people will have theese builds and you will see nothing but cookie-cutter copies running around winning every PVP due to the type of combat.

CC timing? Please. Timing on number presses is NOT skill, it's simply biding time. AIMING PROPERLY in a skill based game, ALSO requires timing, giving you more to worry about and thus requiring more skill.

There are ways in some games to get the best gear without having to be descriminated against for not being a member of the best possible guilds with pro players busting through the best dungeons over and over again for the best gear. It was tougher back in the day but more rewarding due to the second point about internet, but now? Sorry, but it isn't the same. Games such as ESO are failing because of said discrimination.

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima Online, probably a lot longer than you. I don't need your advice on genres.

Your first point is incorrect. Even Call of Duty is sensitive to this. I noticed long ago that I played COD much better on my own. However, as soon as I grouped with friends my kill death ratio tanked. There is a simple reason for this; in a party of six, everyone has a different ping and the server selects opponents based on this ping. Therefore if you are on your own you are more likely to play against players similar to you. In a group, however, there is a chance that there will be a larger difference and this difference can have a major impact on players’ “skill”. Now imagine an entire server like this; not good.

Wrong again about Everquest. Even in 2000 when I played it I regularly tabbed out to check webpages.

Regarding player skill, you are using a very narrow usage of the term ‘skill’. Skill doesn’t just apply to twitch play; skill can be used in many different contexts for a many different strategies. I actually prefer games that reward different kinds of skill.

Old school MMOs reward group play which typically revolved around fighting large dungeons/raids. Don’t play a Multiplayer game and complain about not having the best gear by playing on your own.

[Tytos]

Btw, games like ESO are failing not because of "the internet", which existed back then btw, but because they’ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ suck. They're basically just single player games with a co-op system tagged onto it.

[Luftwaffle]

Knowing when to use what skill and predicting your opponent accurately and defending/attacking and and being able to execute and all of that actually fall under the umbrella of skill.

[The Zombie Collector]

Originally posted by Sarcastro:

Knowing when to use what skill and predicting your opponent accurately and defending/attacking and and being able to execute and all of that actually fall under the umbrella of skill.

yeah but that is so one dimensional. real gamers that rely on skill want the systems that promote skill.

[Luftwaffle]

Or how about "real gamers" admit the merits of different systems even if it isn't to their liking. How about that one.

No one said it had to appeal to everyone but writing this system off as not relying on skill is stupidly close minded.

[The Zombie Collector]

just saying it one dimensional. just target at hit the silence hotkey. rather tahn need to time out a lead on a running target then hit the button.

that would make it better

[Kefo]

I am just curious what everyone's definition of a "real gamer" is? Seems rather silly to say real gamers which implies there are fake gamers

[Tytos]

Originally posted by The Zombie Collector:

just saying it one dimensional. just target at hit the silence hotkey. rather tahn need to time out a lead on a running target then hit the button.

that would make it better

You are justifying your own argument by redefying the combat system in your own terms. It’s only one dimensional in your own terms. Of course it has more to it than tab-target and click, don’t be a moron.

[MiniNinja]

Originally posted by ReVoke:

Your first point is incorrect. Even Call of Duty is sensitive to this. I noticed long ago that I played COD much better on my own. However, as soon as I grouped with friends my kill death ratio tanked. There is a simple reason for this; in a party of six, everyone has a different ping and the server selects opponents based on this ping. Therefore if you are on your own you are more likely to play against players similar to you. In a group, however, there is a chance that there will be a larger difference and this difference can have a major impact on players’ “skill”. Now imagine an entire server like this; not good.

His (Chillin) point about Tera is right tho. I dont know how they do it but there was hardly any lag spikes when even a hiccup in lag will mean certain death as those bosses hit really hard. As a tank I would be dead if I missed 2 blocks and healer was lagging or just slightly slow getting heals off. And the timing on those blocks are right down to the ms.

And if you're not playing against other players, the ping balance might not be that big an issue. In a pvp centric game tho I can see your point.

[PhoenixOmen]

+++111111 to OP, great points; they should be taken under consideration by new GEN PVPers and PvErs, when thinking on this game.

[Luftwaffle]

Originally posted by Wulfen:

Originally posted by ReVoke:

Your first point is incorrect. Even Call of Duty is sensitive to this. I noticed long ago that I played COD much better on my own. However, as soon as I grouped with friends my kill death ratio tanked. There is a simple reason for this; in a party of six, everyone has a different ping and the server selects opponents based on this ping. Therefore if you are on your own you are more likely to play against players similar to you. In a group, however, there is a chance that there will be a larger difference and this difference can have a major impact on players’ “skill”. Now imagine an entire server like this; not good.

His (Chillin) point about Tera is right tho. I dont know how they do it but there was hardly any lag spikes when even a hiccup in lag will mean certain death as those bosses hit really hard. As a tank I would be dead if I missed 2 blocks and healer was lagging or just slightly slow getting heals off. And the timing on those blocks are right down to the ms.

And if you're not playing against other players, the ping balance might not be that big an issue. In a pvp centric game tho I can see your point.

Tera uses a lock on system. If you're pointing at an enemy when you use a skill it hits no matter what. There's no "skill shot" in that, you don't lead your targets or anything. Crosshair lights up or changes or whatever to let you know enemy is targeted, you fire off your skill, done. Lag still plays a part because enemy attack patterns and all but it's not as prominent as it is in an fps typically where people will bounce around and ruin your shots because you were pointing at it at the time as far as the game cares, it hits.

The most skill shot in that game is trying to make sure enemies are lined up for melee attack animations or timed aoes. Hell, the game is still hold left click, push numbers as applicable, with a bit of movement every so often and a few movement skills, it's marginally "more skill based" than this. It just uses a more action oriented one which feels like it's skillshots and stuff but honestly it's not that much. It's not like you have to time enemy movements and line them up as well as lead your targets or anything like that. You've still got active defense like block or dodge abilities and moving out of the way of attacks, but I figure this game has that too as I've not gotten all the way to near end game where those sort of things are typically more applicable.

[Windoze]

Originally posted by Chillin':

Every one of your arguments are strawmen.

Open to lag spikes and frustration? Have you ever played Tera? Have you ever played C9? RaiderZ? Your complaint is fallacy, unless your rig and net completely sucks.

Internet wasn't as prevalent in terms of Walkthrough usage and such back in the days of, say, Everquest. People spent years coming up with perfect builds and they took enough pride to keep it to themselves and certain guild members. Nowadays, everyone posts and copies the best builds. This birthed META, which basically equates to you getting annihilated based on gear, not skill. Within weeks, people will have theese builds and you will see nothing but cookie-cutter copies running around winning every PVP due to the type of combat.

CC timing? Please. Timing on number presses is NOT skill, it's simply biding time. AIMING PROPERLY in a skill based game, ALSO requires timing, giving you more to worry about and thus requiring more skill.

There are ways in some games to get the best gear without having to be descriminated against for not being a member of the best possible guilds with pro players busting through the best dungeons over and over again for the best gear. It was tougher back in the day but more rewarding due to the second point about internet, but now? Sorry, but it isn't the same. Games such as ESO are failing because of said discrimination.

I've been playing MMOs since Ultima Online, probably a lot longer than you. I don't need your advice on genres.

Go play some FPS games if this is your main concern.