pandemonium (extra life) changes suck.

[JMFCainey]

I just felt the need to vent about this a bit.
Currently playing through pandemonium.
and for refrence I've beaten the game on Nightmare 100%
I also beat Eternal on UN including all the DLCs and master levels.
I'm no stranger to the difficulty challenges and dying and restarting.

I understand these new changes are supposed to service as better practice than the extra life mode in Eternal for UN modes, but honestly it's just a mix of frustrating and boring.

UN is a special one of a kind challenge, dying in UN is different, chances are you'll accept the defeat, "better luck next time" put the game down and try again another time, also every level further you get in UN feels like an achievement, though the deaths are frustraiting the wins hit so much harder, pandemonium can not recreate this feeling within a single level.

Extra life mode is different, I'm alot more willing to carry on, but it just makes it so boring to restart a level, sometimes multiple times.

If you want to practice a level over and over again in preparation for UN you can already replay levels as much as you want, if you die you can restart a level yourself.

This mode only forces you to slog through the parts of the level you've already successfully gotten through, it seems much more reasonable to me for it to make you restart from a checkpoint rather than restarting the entire level, especially considering that typically the hardest encounters are naturally at a levels end.

Additionally, not only do you have to redo every encounter you've already successfully beaten, you'll find yourself retracing all the exact same paths and steps to get all the secrets and collectables aswell, it's just a repeatative unnecessary drag.

I'm just not finding it fun, I'm not dying often, I'm doing pretty well, just past the half way point and I've only gone down a handful of times, but every time I die it is followed by a frustrated sigh consistently, knowing I've just got to do the same ♥♥♥♥ again.

I much prefer Eternals extra life mode, Pandemonium doesn't add the extra pressure intended, it just spreads a thick layer of "♥♥♥♥ this ♥♥♥♥" on top of any death, I think it probably succeededs in its goal of practice for UN, but in a forceful, not fun way that you can easily do yourself if thats how you want to practice.

I do think carrying on from where you died is too forgiving and not good practice, this isnt what I would ask for, but make me retry the encounter, reset me from a checkpoint, not from the levels beginning.

[Grampire II]

Eh, its what I did in Eternal anyways.

[Dead Pixel]

Yeah, I agree with you. When I read the description of Pandemonium difficulty I was like: "Oh wait a minute.... What??? I have to restart the entire level rather than the last checkpoint? Nah. Not wasting my time with this tedious bullsh*t."

[burgledturd]

Originally posted by Dead Pixel:

Yeah, I agree with you. When I read the description of Pandemonium difficulty I was like: "Oh wait a minute.... What??? I have to restart the entire level rather than the last checkpoint? Nah. Not wasting my time with this tedious bullsh*t."

then don't do it. already beat it on pandemonium. it's not anymore difficult than nightmare setting itself. don't die, won't have a problem

[JMFCainey]

Originally posted by burgledturd:

Originally posted by Dead Pixel:

Yeah, I agree with you. When I read the description of Pandemonium difficulty I was like: "Oh wait a minute.... What??? I have to restart the entire level rather than the last checkpoint? Nah. Not wasting my time with this tedious bullsh*t."

then don't do it. already beat it on pandemonium. it's not anymore difficult than nightmare setting itself. don't die, won't have a problem

You're misunderstanding, though I set the point very clearly, I feel like you're just looking to disagree for the sake of it.

Its not about difficulty, its about it feeling tedious and boring.

There are literally reasons to do it, for an extra challenge, for the milestone, for the skin, for the practice, so you can say "don't do it" all you want but that's a terrible argument, these extra modes are supposed to add good replay ability to the game, the game is supposed to be fun and majoritively successfully is, the point is this simple change turns a fun challenge into a tedious repetitive drag, and these things that can easily be changed are kinda important to talk about if you want the game to perform the best it can as a video game its primary objective is to entertain.

Eternal managed to do the same thing without it feeling so tedious, sure eternal was perhaps too forgiving, again I'll say I don't think you should just be able to die and just carry on from where you died, I don't think that should even be the case on other difficulties, I think it should reset your checkpoint, not the entire level, forcing you to slog through everything you've already successfully gotten through.

don't be smug, I've laid out reasons and If you've got an actual counterpoint to make then make it but "get gud" is a total misunderstanding of everything I've laid out.

additionally the guy who you replied to literally said he didn't do it because it sounded tedious, so why are you telling him not to do it when that's the action he already decided to take?

[Le Hatch]

Ehh, I'm mostly going to disagree on the grounds that the Extra Life mode in Eternal was already a bit generous in loss mitigation and I think the Pandemonium changes serve better to actually bridge the gap between Nightmare and UN, with death being a heavy price still, just instead of 'do the whole thing' its just 'do the whole level', versus extra life mode basically letting you still effectively brute force some sections if you have lives banked.

Also what you consider tedious I consider to be good practise. UN lives or dies on consistency after all.

[JMFCainey]

Originally posted by Le Hatch:

Ehh, I'm mostly going to disagree on the grounds that the Extra Life mode in Eternal was already a bit generous in loss mitigation and I think the Pandemonium changes serve better to actually bridge the gap between Nightmare and UN, with death being a heavy price still, just instead of 'do the whole thing' its just 'do the whole level', versus extra life mode basically letting you still effectively brute force some sections if you have lives banked.

Also what you consider tedious I consider to be good practise. UN lives or dies on consistency after all.

I've already agreed to this, I think Eternal was far too forgiving, for sure, I don't think you should die and then carry on from where you died, that's not what I'm saying.
I also agree that it certainly serves as better practice for UN, this much is also true.

I think it should make you restart checkpoints, not the entire level.
the mode needs to hold and be fun on its own merits and it doesn't and isnt, unlike UN finishing a level or getting through a challenging area doesn't give you the same sense of achievement as UN does, UN has always been the same and is a gauntlet run in its own rite, dying in UN is much much different and in turn success also hits alot different in UN, mistakes hit harder and success hits harder, that tense and fun feeling you get in UN is simply not present here.

Pandemonium lacks all of this, dying doesn't make me feel like I've failed the great challenge posed, like I must practice a difficult segment repeatedly and try again after some real practice, it doesn't feel like a heavy price, it doesn't hit the same as UN, additionally the success isn't nearly as gratifying.

I agree Eternal is too forgiving, and I agree that it serves its purpose of being good practice, but at the cost of being very tedious and forcing you to drag yourself through the rest of the level you've already successfully done, without the same risk and without the same feeling of achievement for success.

again I think there are several ways you can practice for UN, I don't think the entire aim of pandemonium should be practice, I think it needs to feel fun as its own mode, and restarting you from checkpoints and still making you repeat encounters without dragging you through the entire level again would make the mode much more fun and far less boring.

[Sebastian Dellacourt]

I haven't yet played Pandemonium, but does it track when you collect rubies/gold etc per run, so when you start a level over you don't have to go back and get all that stuff again? That would be very annoying to have to do.

[gordon freeman]

Originally posted by Sebastian Dellacourt:

I haven't yet played Pandemonium, but does it track when you collect rubies/gold etc per run, so when you start a level over you don't have to go back and get all that stuff again? That would be very annoying to have to do.

It doesn't track those

[JMFCainey]

Originally posted by Sebastian Dellacourt:

I haven't yet played Pandemonium, but does it track when you collect rubies/gold etc per run, so when you start a level over you don't have to go back and get all that stuff again? That would be very annoying to have to do.

Yeah unfortunately, You do, it drops all the progress you've made on the level, including challenges, secrets, collectables, upgrades, everything.

It essentially treats individual levels like its UN whilst failing to replicate the same sense of achievement or high stakes.

[Berserk Slayer]

Out of interest, without using the same measures as eternal which it looks like you consider a bit too forgiving, what would be a good middle ground for you, that added some cost of dying without ending the run?

[JMFCainey]

Originally posted by Berserk Slayer:

Out of interest, without using the same measures as eternal which it looks like you consider a bit too forgiving, what would be a good middle ground for you, that added some cost of dying without ending the run?

Restarting from checkpoints, making you have to restart encounters you have failed without having to track through everything you've been through successfully, honestly I'd argue the rest of the difficulties should be like this too, perhaps with the exception of the lowest difficulties, I think in general being able to carry on from where you died is just to forgiving.

They could even go a step further and set less forgiving checkpoints for this mode, just having to do the entire level, find all the secrets, do all the challenges ect repeatedly becomes a real drag, again, especially considering the hardest encounters are typically at a levels end.

[Dae]

Personally I love it. It's like playing 1 life survival on Zandronum, you die, you restart map and as long as you can keep your sigils up (or just not die lmao), you dodge the entire game restart.

Originally posted by Sebastian Dellacourt:

I haven't yet played Pandemonium, but does it track when you collect rubies/gold etc per run, so when you start a level over you don't have to go back and get all that stuff again? That would be very annoying to have to do.

Nope, you have to recollect on death.