Denuvo = No Buy

[SecondLeaseGamer]

Shame. I really was looking forward to this game, but im not paying money to install malware onto my computer. Screw SecuROM/Denuvo.

[Carbon]

Автор сообщения: lukaself

Автор сообщения: Carbon

As such, I agree with the petition, but not with your misinterpretation of it, nor how you are presenting it as an argument against DRM here.

Again, DRM is intrinsically linked to planned obsolescence - what would be the initiative's value if publishers were left free to add arbitrary expiration dates with DRM? Your point does not make sense. Time alone doesn’t invalidate research - only better research can do that. And for what it’s worth, my efforts extend well beyond “saving gaming from a chair,” while you attempt to diminish them from your own, which is ironic in itself.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to back your claims with evidence. Otherwise, it comes off as baseless dismissal. For all I know, you might just be another alt-account echoing industry lines, mistaking sarcasm for argument.

Either way, your disagreement had been noted. You're welcome to join our action and make constructive suggestions to improve it in a way that would satisfy you and help push the gaming industry forward: https://store.steampowered.com/curator/26095454-Denuvo-Games/

And let’s be clear: the burden of proof isn’t on us to accept DRM - it’s on you to justify it. If you can't, the market will decide. We’ll simply spend our money elsewhere.

You're really not getting this.

I don't like DRM but understand why it's used and agree that piracy is a problem and accept that publishers have the right to do what they choose to prevent it. In this sense, I support their choice, as I recognize their position.

I do not agree that the petition is making any claim regarding DRM explicitly and your use of it as a platform for any anti-DRM crusade is a disservice to the initiative. which again, I agree with. The petition has a strong case regarding aspects of ownership while DRM remains highly debatable. If the former wins, the latter will follow so focus your efforts; lose a battle but win the war type thing.

You have not made a coherent argument regarding DRM's role in that for which the petition is arguing.

I am too old for concern over how you feel about me. No alts: I am always myself, face to face or behind the keyboard. And I won't be joining any armchair revolution, nor have I made any claims that need proof and there is no irony in my position.

At the risk or sounding cynical, in my experience, most people believe in very few things for which they will actually sacrifice anything at all. D:DA will sell very well indeed. You'll probably buy it too and make your un-owned game total 789. ;)

Good luck and I hope the petition succeeds.

[MILKElikeCAT]

Автор сообщения: lukaself

You know that pirated download sites quickly appeared after "inZOI" removed "Denuvo", so can you guarantee that the game will not be cracked without "Denuvo"?
Although it is still possible to bypass it with "Denuvo", it at least requires crackers to spend time and have the ability to crack it. Removing it will only open the door to crackers.

[lukaself]

Автор сообщения: MILKElikeCAT

Автор сообщения: lukaself

You know that pirated download sites quickly appeared after "inZOI" removed "Denuvo", so can you guarantee that the game will not be cracked without "Denuvo"?
Although it is still possible to bypass it with "Denuvo", it at least requires crackers to spend time and have the ability to crack it. Removing it will only open the door to crackers.

It might surprise you but Denuvo's adoption rate on Steam is below 0.2%. Last year, only 30 games used Denuvo over the 15k Steam releases each year - among them, more than 500 AA and AAA. It's down 30% compared to the year before. The best part? For the past decade, the top seller has almost consistently been a DRM-free game: Baldur's Gate 3, Palworld, Elden Ring (not DRM-free but no Denuvo there), Valheim, Hollow Knight, Hades, The Witcher, Cyberpunk 2077...

Denuvo users are a tiny minority of companies with a long history of anti-consumer practices. In last year's Steam top 100 best sellers, DRM-free games outnumbered games with Denuvo three to one. Those games can be downloaded any number of times and installed freely without paying a cent and yet, people massively decided to pay for that - either those publishers are doing something very right to convince pirates to buy instead without coercing them, or piracy isn't the sales-destroying boogeyman DRM peddlers are waving to sell their snake oil. My personal opinion is that it's a bit of both.

The absolute majority of the industry remains unconvinced by Denuvo's selling points. I have yet to see a single instance of a modern company attributing its failure to reach their audience to piracy. Even Valve doesn't think it's a problem worth inconveniencing your own customers over.

Feel free to read up:

Erik Johnson: There hasn't been a case where we're making a trade off that could negatively impact a customer's experience to reduce this theoretical piracy rate. Those always seem like awful decisions.

Gabe Newell: You were just saying, you're making this trade off, and it's always the wrong one if any customers can be affected negatively by it.

Erik Johnson: Being able to log into any computer and play our games on Steam was a feature that we thought was interesting in the early days of Steam, but has turned out to be an incredibly high value thing for customers, and that's the kind of thing where a flawed anti piracy strategy would be at odds with that.

Doug Lombardi: The other thing, too, is that gamers are generally good people. If you're making a good game and you've done a good job both from a quality and on the communications standpoint, they're more than happy to give you their money.

Do you have a good sense of piracy rates with Steam games?

Gabe Newell: They're low enough that we don't really spend any time [on it]. When you look at the things we sit around and talk about, as big picture cross game issues, we're way more concerned about the stability of DirectX drivers or, you know, the erroneous banning of people. That's way more of an issue for us than piracy.

Once you create service value for customers, ongoing service value, piracy seems to disappear, right? It's like “Oh, you're still doing something for me? I don't mind the fact that I paid for this.” Once you actually localise your product in Russia and ship it on the same day that you ship your English language versions, this theoretical hotbed of piracy becomes your second largest- third largest after Germany in continental Europe? Or third after UK?

Erik Johnson: In terms of retail units?

Gabe Newell: In terms of sales of our products, yeah. Overall, Steam plus retail.

Erik Johnson: Probably second. It's a big number.

Gabe Newell: The point is that there's this market that you shouldn't waste your time on, that went from, “You shouldn't waste our time on it, they'll just pirate it,” to “it's actually a really large market for us now,” once you actually do the things that allow your product to be played. And that's why some of the DRM approaches are so bad, because they create negative value, not positive value.

And especially that part where Valve's CEO does not mince words:

Gabe Newell: We’re a broken record on this, this belief that you increase your monetisation by making your game worth less through aggressive digital rights management is totally backwards. [...] I think publishers with excessive DRM will sell less of their products and create more problems,

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Denuvo#List_of_games_using_Denuvo_Anti-Tamper

Bonus fact: According to the numbers from VGI, Baldur's Gate 3 - a notoriously DRM-free game and 2023's top seller - generated as much revenue in 2023 alone than the five next games with Denuvo combined. (Source: VGI[imgur.com])

Long story short, I'm not saying that games with Denuvo will sell badly - I'm pretty sure Doom The Dark Ages will be successful but it will owe nothing to Denuvo - there's no compelling evidence that Denuvo helps selling games and thus no incentive for a paying customer to accept the inconvenience it represents.

[MILKElikeCAT]

Автор сообщения: lukaself

Please don't preach your closed-minded ideas to me like "Missionary".

[Nidstang]

DRM is objectively ♥♥♥♥ and anti-consumer.
Denuvo objectively contributes to performance issues.
DRM and anti-piracy objectively does nothing to stop piracy.
The game will be cracked within days anyways, so adding Denuvo really just punishes paying customers.

It's not enough to get me to not buy the game, but I wish these game companies would ditch DRMs. GOG has been thriving off the no-DRM model for years. I buy there whenever I can simply because of that.

[Grampire]

Автор сообщения: lukaself

And failing at doing so. Whoever you might be, If you have a personal problem with me despite aquiescing to my points, I'm afraid that's an issue you'll have to resolve on your end.

The “Stop Killing Games” campaign, which demands regulation around DRM and post-support playability, reached the European Commission's required threshold in seven countries and mobilized over half a million gamers - a group known for rarely agreeing on anything - which is saying something. That alone should tell you which direction public opinion is heading.

By downplaying it, you're not just defending DRM: You're defending a model of software ownership that's increasingly recognized as harmful - and you're on the wrong side of that shift. :clickbutton:

Just amazing.

During our "interactions" I've repeatedly commented on SaS/access issues being the bigger looming threat here compared to the waning relevance of Denuvo and been dismissed as making "off-topic attempts at derailment..."

...and now you're misappropriating a study that 100% supports that position..... to your Denuvo crusade. All the while injecting rhetoric like "the question is - will you see it" and "you're on the wrong side of the shift."

🤣🤣

I dont think there's anything more poetic - or absolutely unhinged. Just, just can't make this up.

"Whoever I might be?" This is good, but I think the real question is who the hell are... nah, don't ruin it. I like the mystique - gotta be honest.

And don't worry - I don't have any actual problem with you that I'm unable to "resolve" on my end. And despite your aspiration to be Steam's "DRM 007" I am not the one trying to be your enemy. You blocked me, remember?

l'd never do that to you. This is too much fun and I'm hoping for 4 more years of your confusing "evidence." Visit these forums often, m'kay?❤️

[Grampire]

Автор сообщения: Nidstang

The game will be cracked within days anyways, so adding Denuvo really just punishes paying customers.

It's extremely unlikely that TDA will be cracked within days - if at all. Look into it if curious as I'm not looking for a ban.

[TwoChins]

only people hounding these forums are nerds that have already pre-ordered. You'll get nothing but flak lmao

[space]

Автор сообщения: TwoChins

only people hounding these forums are nerds that have already pre-ordered. You'll get nothing but flak lmao

plenty of people in this thread without mouse icon

[max]

Автор сообщения: TwoChins

only people hounding these forums are nerds that have already pre-ordered. You'll get nothing but flak lmao

You're here too, no? You secretly pre-ordered on battle.net?

[TwoChins]

Автор сообщения: space

Автор сообщения: TwoChins

only people hounding these forums are nerds that have already pre-ordered. You'll get nothing but flak lmao

plenty of people in this thread without mouse icon

over half the posts under this topic are from people who have already pre-ordered. Cheers

[space]

Автор сообщения: TwoChins

over half the posts under this topic are from people who have already pre-ordered. Cheers

"over half" =/= only?

[min3r95]

Автор сообщения: MILKElikeCAT

You know that pirated download sites quickly appeared after "inZOI" removed "Denuvo", so can you guarantee that the game will not be cracked without "Denuvo"?
Although it is still possible to bypass it with "Denuvo", it at least requires crackers to spend time and have the ability to crack it. Removing it will only open the door to crackers.

As always there's no reason to worry about that, game is still available for people to purchase and that's all it need, a huge part of the industry can and is doing pretty good without Denuvo despite the piracy existence, piracy isn't that scary.

[Carbon]

Автор сообщения: lukaself

Автор сообщения: MILKElikeCAT

You know that pirated download sites quickly appeared after "inZOI" removed "Denuvo", so can you guarantee that the game will not be cracked without "Denuvo"?
Although it is still possible to bypass it with "Denuvo", it at least requires crackers to spend time and have the ability to crack it. Removing it will only open the door to crackers.

It might surprise you but Denuvo's adoption rate on Steam is below 0.2%. Last year, only 30 games used Denuvo over the 15k Steam releases each year - among them, more than 500 AA and AAA. It's down 30% compared to the year before. The best part? For the past decade, the top seller has almost consistently been a DRM-free game: Baldur's Gate 3, Palworld, Elden Ring (not DRM-free but no Denuvo there), Valheim, Hollow Knight, Hades, The Witcher, Cyberpunk 2077...

Denuvo users are a tiny minority of companies with a long history of anti-consumer practices. In last year's Steam top 100 best sellers, DRM-free games outnumbered games with Denuvo three to one. Those games can be downloaded any number of times and installed freely without paying a cent and yet, people massively decided to pay for that - either those publishers are doing something very right to convince pirates to buy instead without coercing them, or piracy isn't the sales-destroying boogeyman DRM peddlers are waving to sell their snake oil. My personal opinion is that it's a bit of both.

The absolute majority of the industry remains unconvinced by Denuvo's selling points. I have yet to see a single instance of a modern company attributing its failure to reach their audience to piracy. Even Valve doesn't think it's a problem worth inconveniencing your own customers over.

https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Denuvo#List_of_games_using_Denuvo_Anti-Tamper

Bonus fact: According to the numbers from VGI, Baldur's Gate 3 - a notoriously DRM-free game and 2023's top seller - generated as much revenue in 2023 alone than the five next games with Denuvo combined. (Source: VGI[imgur.com])

Long story short, I'm not saying that games with Denuvo will sell badly - I'm pretty sure Doom The Dark Ages will be successful but it will owe nothing to Denuvo - there's no compelling evidence that Denuvo helps selling games and thus no incentive for a paying customer to accept the inconvenience it represents. :clickbutton:

tl;dr:

Denuvo use is low. Gabe Newell doesn't use it.

Why do you esteem Gabe's opinion on these matters? Prior to Steam, I owned my games. He pretty much created the games as a service model or at least facilitated companies to easily adopt it, the very thing the petition is fighting.

It seems you've lost the plot. You revere the very company that created/facilitated the non-ownership of games and have 780 games on that service but also flog a petition which is fighting against that very idea. Do as I say and not as I do, or to have one's cake and eat it as well. Both are fitting.

One might see you as being disingenuous and hypocritical but I see you as naive; like a 20 year old who just took their first university psych class and starts analyzing everyone around them.

Regardless, you've still to connect the dots between the petition and your anti-DRM stance. Low adoption rates, the success of non-DRM titles and Gabe aren't going to get you there.

[󠀡󠀡]

Denuvo = No Buy THREAD in multiple games, some of them not even owning, creating same crap copy paste to any game on steam forums. reported again and as usual blocked no brain threads creators!