I Hope The Dark Ages is Different

[MYBUTT]

Honestly, while I like DOOM Eternal a lot, I’ve never been a big fan of the whole resource management weapon swap spam thing the game had going for it. It’s what made playing on higher difficulties not as fun for me, compared to other fast paced shooters. Having to keep track of my ammo, cooldowns, chainsaw fuel, and having to do weapon swap combos just isn’t fun to me, and like the game shot itself in the foot. I just want to focus on the fight, ducking and weaving enemy projectiles, using what weapon I feel is appropriate in that moment, and not having enemies feel so spongy.

I hope The Dark Ages isn’t so reliant on all that, but I’ll probably still play and enjoy it.

[Unmotivated]

Joker a écrit :

we've yet to define what 'core mechanic(s)' means i think its about time we do it

I literally just told you bro...... a core mechanic is defining to the game's identity.

For instance, glory kill, blood punch and flame belch interact to enhance your survivability against very aggressive enemies. They define the combat system by being actively appropriate to use and feeling obtuse to play without them.

Basically, if it serves to ifentify the design philosophy of the gameplay, it's a core mechanic. All the weapons are core mechanics. The chainsaw is a core mechanic. Flame belch is a core mechanic. Dash is a core mechanic.

Grenades are not a core mechanic. Blood punch's blast wave healing is not a core mechanic. Runes are not a core mechanic. These are designed as add ons to complement and smooth out the combat system, not be definitive aspects of it.

Much in the same way as online is not a core mechanic in Dark Souls, as it exists entirely divided from the rest of the game's design, but upgrading weapons is a core mechanic.

[Unmotivated]

Joker a écrit :

Unmotivated a écrit :

It is a core mechanic because it is part of the combat loop as it was designed.

Also armor isn't damage reduction in 2016 and Eternal, it is in fact a second health bar.

if it were a second health bar, armor would have to be fully depleted before health takes damage. this does not happen in either game.

"The armor percentage is reduced when the player absorbs damage due to enemy attacks or environmental hazards (damaging floors, exploding barrels, pods, or crushing ceilings).

In the Doom games, when a player is attacked, the standard green armor absorbs one third (1/3) of the damage from each hit, thus lessening the decrease in health."

Actually, it does deplete in 2016 and Eternal before you lose health.

You are talking about the armor system in classic Doom and Doom 3. They completely reworked armor in new Doom.

[furbleburble]

Grampire a écrit :

Agreed, and to put it another way, the chainsaw "allows" you to use nothing but the SSG if you want.

Glass half empty/full situation. 😎

And Eternal "allows" for it better than the classics do. In the classics, it's relatively easy to run out of a given ammo type and go for a time without finding more of that type. In Eternal, you can use the chainsaw to refill that ammo virtually whenever you choose. In the end, Eternal has the most freedom of any Doom game to date.

[Ace]

furbleburble a écrit :

Grampire a écrit :

Agreed, and to put it another way, the chainsaw "allows" you to use nothing but the SSG if you want.

Glass half empty/full situation. 😎

And Eternal "allows" for it better than the classics do. In the classics, it's relatively easy to run out of a given ammo type and go for a time without finding more of that type. In Eternal, you can use the chainsaw to refill that ammo virtually whenever you choose. In the end, Eternal has the most freedom of any Doom game to date.

Very true indeed.

[Grampire]

furbleburble a écrit :

Grampire a écrit :

Agreed, and to put it another way, the chainsaw "allows" you to use nothing but the SSG if you want.

Glass half empty/full situation. 😎

And Eternal "allows" for it better than the classics do. In the classics, it's relatively easy to run out of a given ammo type and go for a time without finding more of that type. In Eternal, you can use the chainsaw to refill that ammo virtually whenever you choose. In the end, Eternal has the most freedom of any Doom game to date.

Exactly!

[furbleburble]

Unmotivated a écrit :

Joker a écrit :

we've yet to define what 'core mechanic(s)' means i think its about time we do it

I literally just told you bro...... a core mechanic is defining to the game's identity.

For instance, glory kill, blood punch and flame belch interact to enhance your survivability against very aggressive enemies. They define the combat system by being actively appropriate to use and feeling obtuse to play without them.

Basically, if it serves to ifentify the design philosophy of the gameplay, it's a core mechanic. All the weapons are core mechanics. The chainsaw is a core mechanic. Flame belch is a core mechanic. Dash is a core mechanic.

Grenades are not a core mechanic. Blood punch's blast wave healing is not a core mechanic. Runes are not a core mechanic. These are designed as add ons to complement and smooth out the combat system, not be definitive aspects of it.

Much in the same way as online is not a core mechanic in Dark Souls, as it exists entirely divided from the rest of the game's design, but upgrading weapons is a core mechanic.

"They define the combat system by being actively appropriate to use and feeling obtuse to play without them."

I like this.

[Joker]

Grampire a écrit :

Joker a écrit :

i disagree. well i'd usually agree, but in this case i think it's an exception. you have walking and jumping, 'core mechanics', using my definition, that, if you dont engage with, you cant beat the game. this is because in order to beat the game, you must reach the end of each level. you cannot do this unless you walk. and jump.

I don't think that's a good definition for core mechanics. If it were, shooting and attacking in the original Doom games would not satisfy the test to be considered a "core" mechanic:

https://youtu.be/o78DzBJ4Rv8?si=gf7p2hXoY1MioNiN

Focusing on "must" is below the baseline when it comes to determining what is "core" - what the character of a game is and where the player should comfortably reside when playing the game.

I'm also completely willing to accept that the "core" experience evolves based on how someone chooses to play thr game.

I think weakpoints are core mechanics. I think chainsaw, double jumping, runes, moving, glory kills, flame belch, blood punch, meathook, weapon mods, all of it - is "core."

then it's a matter of what we define as 'core'. which can obviously be much more than just 'can't function without'! i never played the classics so i wouldnt know about attacking and shooting. again though, as i said about extremes, should they count or nah? in any case though, it's a good thing we're talking about eternal and not the classics then ;)

i think everybody should give their defintiion for what 'core mechanics' means. or if it even matters. maybe we've been trolled into having this discussion...

Unmotivated a écrit :

Joker a écrit :

we've yet to define what 'core mechanic(s)' means i think its about time we do it

I literally just told you bro...... a core mechanic is defining to the game's identity.

For instance, glory kill, blood punch and flame belch interact to enhance your survivability against very aggressive enemies. They define the combat system by being actively appropriate to use and feeling obtuse to play without them.

Basically, if it serves to ifentify the design philosophy of the gameplay, it's a core mechanic. All the weapons are core mechanics. The chainsaw is a core mechanic. Flame belch is a core mechanic. Dash is a core mechanic.

Grenades are not a core mechanic. Blood punch's blast wave healing is not a core mechanic. Runes are not a core mechanic. These are designed as add ons to complement and smooth out the combat system, not be definitive aspects of it.

Much in the same way as online is not a core mechanic in Dark Souls, as it exists entirely divided from the rest of the game's design, but upgrading weapons is a core mechanic.

i didnt see your post lol but thanks for giving us your definition ahead of time

Unmotivated a écrit :

Joker a écrit :

if it were a second health bar, armor would have to be fully depleted before health takes damage. this does not happen in either game.

"The armor percentage is reduced when the player absorbs damage due to enemy attacks or environmental hazards (damaging floors, exploding barrels, pods, or crushing ceilings).

In the Doom games, when a player is attacked, the standard green armor absorbs one third (1/3) of the damage from each hit, thus lessening the decrease in health."

Actually, it does deplete in 2016 and Eternal before you lose health.

You are talking about the armor system in classic Doom and Doom 3. They completely reworked armor in new Doom.

huh, youre right. i couldve sworn it was just damage reduction.

[Sar]

Isn’t that the definite proof of how obtuse Eternal’s mechanics are? Even its biggest defenders don’t know how one of its core mechanics, Armor, works!

[Joker]

Sar a écrit :

Isn’t that the definite proof of how obtuse Eternal’s mechanics are? Even its biggest defenders don’t know how one of its core mechanics, Armor, works!

yuh they dont know i dont even play the game ;)))

[Sar]

holy based

[furbleburble]

Sar a écrit :

Isn’t that the definite proof of how obtuse Eternal’s mechanics are? Even its biggest defenders don’t know how one of its core mechanics, Armor, works!

Armor's overrated anyway.

[Sar]

I love it. I think Flame Belch is maybe my favorite core mechanic! It’s so fun to ignite big groups of demons on fire and then punch or frag them for a full armor refill.

[zero hope >:(]

furbleburble a écrit :

And Eternal "allows" for it better than the classics do. In the classics, it's relatively easy to run out of a given ammo type and go for a time without finding more of that type. In Eternal, you can use the chainsaw to refill that ammo virtually whenever you choose. In the end, Eternal has the most freedom of any Doom game to date.

in classics you may type IDFA whenever you want to refill your sh­it though.
basically, DE got IDFA cheat somewhat legitimized. ammo hunger is not a thing

[Sar]

That’s true, but Eternal’s encounters are designed with that fact in mind.

[furbleburble]

zero hope >:( a écrit :

furbleburble a écrit :

And Eternal "allows" for it better than the classics do. In the classics, it's relatively easy to run out of a given ammo type and go for a time without finding more of that type. In Eternal, you can use the chainsaw to refill that ammo virtually whenever you choose. In the end, Eternal has the most freedom of any Doom game to date.

in classics you may type IDFA whenever you want to refill your sh­it though.
basically, DE got IDFA cheat somewhat legitimized. ammo hunger is not a thing

Sure, you could cheat whenever you choose, I suppose, but Eternal doesn't require cheating to get full ammo.

Sar a écrit :

I love it. I think Flame Belch is maybe my favorite core mechanic! It’s so fun to ignite big groups of demons on fire and then punch or frag them for a full armor refill.

I find that fun, too. Freezing for health is also fun. Freeze, Belch, Frag and Punch can potentially trivialize groups of enemies and eliminate the use of ammo all together.