2016 Doom > Doom Eternal

[Ch33zyDischarg3]

Eternal was a good game, but the gameplay loop and mechanics were a step backwards from the 2016 reboot.

Give us gameplay more similar to the 2016 masterpiece, please.

[Ch33zyDischarg3]

Originally posted by Grampire:

Originally posted by Ch33zyDischarg3:

"The more" isn't my issue. Choice is good. It's that "the more" constrains you in Eternal. You have to use it. You can't ignore any weapon or mechanic. It plays more like a rhythm game than a shooter. It's fun and it's unique, but the restrictions it puts on play style is far greater than 2016.

A great shooter gives you the tools you need and cuts you loose. You can't rely on one weapon or mechanic the whole time but you don't need to use everything the game gives you.

Rhythm game?

Doom has always been a rhythm game.

First: pick any weapon in any OG Doom. Hold down left click. Hear that? The sounds in sync with the RPM? You learn it, you feel it, you stagger A to D from in and out of LoS to avoid taking damage in sync with it.

Most great shooters are rhythm games, and the source material for Doom is no exception. What are you even saying here? 2016 is as much a rhythm game as Eternal.


How does the "more" in Eternal actually constrain you? You can take a glass half-empty look at these rules if you want. But they let you do things like the following:

• comfortably clutch a single weapon harder than you ever have
  
• use melee options on demons that could instantly kill you
  
• reposition instantly, attack from the air, stay airborne
  
• move faster
  
• increase damage
  
• reclaim any resource
  
• tank damage
  
• fight effectively from any range without constraint

There's a handful of things on that list which are impossible in 2016. Seems like I have at least as many choices, I just need to learn a few more rules to "unlock" them.

I don't know how else to articulate it. I guess I don't have the vocabulary.

Eternal gives you more mechanics you NEED to use, not mechanics that you CAN use.

[Sar]

Originally posted by Ch33zyDischarg3:

It's that "the more" constrains you in Eternal. You have to use it. You can't ignore any weapon or mechanic.

You can ignore some mechanics (I didn't understand the benefits of Blood Punch during my first playthrough, for example, so I just didn't really use it because I was forgetting it exists). You can ignore most weapons, too. You just need to use more than one or two. As an example, I tend to crutch heavily on Lock-On Burst attachment for Rocket Launcher so I'm typically low on Rocket ammo. Recently I replayed the game with a self-imposed restriction (aka Hundinger Mode) where I had to use only weapon attachments I typically don't use. This means I replaced Lock-On Burst with Remote Detonation, and since I don't typically use RD and I don't quickswap, I just ignored Rocket Launcher - typically my strongest tool - for the entire playthrough. And I did fine.

This all applies only to Nightmare, of course. On easier difficulties you can ignore even more mechanics.

[deadscene]

2016 is already a classic iconic game , eternal was fun and good but not on 2016 level, that's said the new Doom looks phenomenal and is day 1 purchase for me

[Grampire]

Originally posted by Ch33zyDischarg3:

Originally posted by Grampire:

Rhythm game?

Doom has always been a rhythm game.

First: pick any weapon in any OG Doom. Hold down left click. Hear that? The sounds in sync with the RPM? You learn it, you feel it, you stagger A to D from in and out of LoS to avoid taking damage in sync with it.

Most great shooters are rhythm games, and the source material for Doom is no exception. What are you even saying here? 2016 is as much a rhythm game as Eternal.


How does the "more" in Eternal actually constrain you? You can take a glass half-empty look at these rules if you want. But they let you do things like the following:

• comfortably clutch a single weapon harder than you ever have
  
• use melee options on demons that could instantly kill you
  
• reposition instantly, attack from the air, stay airborne
  
• move faster
  
• increase damage
  
• reclaim any resource
  
• tank damage
  
• fight effectively from any range without constraint

There's a handful of things on that list which are impossible in 2016. Seems like I have at least as many choices, I just need to learn a few more rules to "unlock" them.

I don't know how else to articulate it. I guess I don't have the vocabulary.

Eternal gives you more mechanics you NEED to use, not mechanics that you CAN use.

The only things you "need" to use - aside from movement - that the game is fully centered around, are glory kills (health) chainsaw (ammo) and flame belch (armor).

That's it. How you choose to incorporate the rest of the mechanics in the game is up to you really. How often you use those three above really kinda hinges on the choices you make from a gameplay perspective.

It's not like there's a cooldown where you have to do any of those three things on a strict timelimit either - no more than running over an ammo drop.

[Sar]

Originally posted by Ch33zyDischarg3:

Eternal gives you more mechanics you NEED to use, not mechanics that you CAN use.

So here's the thing with balancing a game like DE which is not an RPG and you eventually get access to a bunch of those mechanics.

You can design the game in a way where most of those mechanics are optional. That will mean that, even playing on hardest skill, you can pretty easily play the game and ignore them. Don't Glory Kill, don't use Grenades, don't use Meathook. Let's call this player Player A.

Now, imagine you are somebody who wants to use all those mechanics. You rebind them, you use them heavily. Grenades for falters, Chainsaw for magic ammo, Meathook for mobility. This is our Player B.

Now, there are two possibilities:

1. Those mechanics do something useful. This means, Player B combines them to get so far above Player A in combat power they just plow effortlessly through the challenges of the game. Where Player A struggled a bit, Player B just bulldozed the game. This is going to be satisfying to some people, but not to everyone. This is our Doom 2016 situation.

2. Those mechanics don't give Player B an edge because they're weak and inconsequential. I don't think I need to explain why that would also be a bad thing.

[momoi_gaming]

Originally posted by Sar:

2. Those mechanics don't give Player B an edge because they're weak and inconsequential. I don't think I need to explain why that would also be a bad thing.

This is they key, games must be consequent with the player's actions in order to feel rewarding and challenging.

Create mechanics without create the dinamics to push the player to get into it, is indeed lazy design.

[Eunostos]

Played 2016 a few times, got bored a few chapters into eternal. Saturday morning cartoon pivot really shouldn't engage a functional YA onwards.

[Grilled Cheese]

100% correct. eternal sucked. it was bulletstorm 2 instead of a doom game

[momoi_gaming]

Originally posted by Ch33zyDischarg3:

I don't know how else to articulate it. I guess I don't have the vocabulary.

Eternal gives you more mechanics you NEED to use, not mechanics that you CAN use.

I think you are using the wrong word here, eternal gives you more reasons to use your arsenal.

You can simply use the sticky bombs throughout the entire game and complete it, but the question here is why would you?

Giving the player freedom doesn't have to be a good thing in the first place. If you don't give them good reasons to use the mechanics, they will never feel like they are taking advantage of them.

You can use them, but you will never feel like you are making good decisions if all the other decisions you could have made also seemed correct.

Eternal is more consequent with the player's actions.

And i think It doesn't limit your playstyle; in fact, it is basically the opposite. By giving you more reasons to use your arsenal, you will have more reasons to pick playstyle.

How could someone create their own playstyle if all the other options also seem correct? You can't create something consistent (your playstyle) without discarding options that you consider don't work for you and the game.

[Grilled Cheese]

Originally posted by Ronin_019:

Originally posted by Ch33zyDischarg3:

I don't know how else to articulate it. I guess I don't have the vocabulary.

Eternal gives you more mechanics you NEED to use, not mechanics that you CAN use.

I think you are using the wrong word here, eternal gives you more reasons to use your arsenal.

You can simply use the sticky bombs throughout the entire game and complete it, but the question here is why would you?

Giving the player freedom doesn't have to be a good thing in the first place. If you don't give them good reasons to use the mechanics, they will never feel like they are taking advantage of them.

You can use them, but you will never feel like you are making good decisions if all the other decisions you could have made also seemed correct.

Eternal is more consequent with the player's actions.

And i think It doesn't limit your playstyle; in fact, it is basically the opposite. By giving you more reasons to use your arsenal, you will have more reasons to pick playstyle.

How could someone create their own playstyle if all the other options also seem correct? You can't create something consistent (your playstyle) without discarding options that you consider don't suit you.

doom eternal was limit playstyle the game. instead of create your own solutions to rooms, you had to use glory kills and do what the game wanted you to do to beat it. it sucked. i dont play doom for a puzzle game.

[momoi_gaming]

Originally posted by Grilled Cheese:

Originally posted by Ronin_019:

I think you are using the wrong word here, eternal gives you more reasons to use your arsenal.

You can simply use the sticky bombs throughout the entire game and complete it, but the question here is why would you?

Giving the player freedom doesn't have to be a good thing in the first place. If you don't give them good reasons to use the mechanics, they will never feel like they are taking advantage of them.

You can use them, but you will never feel like you are making good decisions if all the other decisions you could have made also seemed correct.

Eternal is more consequent with the player's actions.

And i think It doesn't limit your playstyle; in fact, it is basically the opposite. By giving you more reasons to use your arsenal, you will have more reasons to pick playstyle.

How could someone create their own playstyle if all the other options also seem correct? You can't create something consistent (your playstyle) without discarding options that you consider don't suit you.

doom eternal was limit playstyle the game. instead of create your own solutions to rooms, you had to use glory kills and do what the game wanted you to do to beat it. it sucked. i dont play doom for a puzzle game.

No, you can do what the game wanted by different ways.

If you find yourself forced to perform glory kills very often, have you even thought about why in the first place? It's not even necessary to do glory kills; you can get some health just by killing demons. You also have the flame belch.

[Grilled Cheese]

Originally posted by Ronin_019:

Originally posted by Grilled Cheese:

doom eternal was limit playstyle the game. instead of create your own solutions to rooms, you had to use glory kills and do what the game wanted you to do to beat it. it sucked. i dont play doom for a puzzle game.

No, you can do what the game wanted by different ways.

If you find yourself forced to perform glory kills very often, have you even thought about why in the first place? It's not even necessary to do glory kills; you can get some health just by killing demons. You also have the flame belch.

doom is not a think game. its a murder game. also you have to do glory kills to have ammo, bc they ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up the supply balance through laziness. slap in a mechanic instead of design a level. besides all the other crap they tried that very much made it play not like a doom game. doom is not a series for innovation. people just want more basic doom. ( and less screwing over your contract workers and trying to blame all the problems on them )

[Sar]

Originally posted by Grilled Cheese:

also you have to do glory kills to have ammo

no?

[Grilled Cheese]

Originally posted by Sar:

Originally posted by Grilled Cheese:

also you have to do glory kills to have ammo

no?

then you didnt play anything besides easy. XD

[Sar]

Originally posted by Grilled Cheese:

Originally posted by Sar:

no?

then you didnt play anything besides easy. XD

I've completed the game on Ultra-Nightmare. I glory kill a lot, but not for ammo.