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I've been writting up a text file with stuff that I believe OC would be a much better program with, but I'm waiting till they fine-tune the thing before sending it to them. Most of it is stuff that doesn't seem to change much at first, but all adds up to what could be considered OC10. Yes, skipping 7, 8 and 9 in one go. XD
And true, to each his/her own, but for the most part tracing doesn't teach you much, if anything at all. You can have all the confidence in the world, but if your work doesn't back it up, you're actually just fooling yourself. And if you ever come to that realization, motivation can drop like a rock.
I'm not against using references, don't get me wrong! I'd be a huge hypocrite if that was the case. But relying on them to get things done quicker (those damn deadlines!!!) and relying on them to do anything at all are two completely different things.
But in all honestly? By the time I'm done posing a model using their rather awkward posing mechanics, I would've gone to the nearest toy store, bought a pretty mobile Spiderman action figure, put him in whatever pose I want, take a picture with my cellphone and trace off of THAT. And that includes the time it takes to go to the store!
Agreed, keeping a community, and a happy one at that, will help GREATLY in the long run... which is why I personally think they should create an english forum on their site. They got a japanese one, but what about us?
Edit:
Eh.. I can't seem to find it? ComiPo seems to be this.. http://store.steampowered.com/app/262490/ which has nothing to do with portalgraphics or MangaLabo?
Edit:
Okay found it, it's called ComiLaboPlus[www.portalgraphics.net]
Mischief is quite an important development, it's not a fullscreen canvas - it's an infinite canvas. It's completely vector based. Once the development picks up (which it will now that it's under The Foundry) it'll become a really powerful tool.
openCanvas development has really stagnated. Think back 10 years, they were really popular! So many artists used it and posted great event files. They were the market leaders. There was even online co-op!
But if you look at oC now, it's pretty much in the same state, minus online co-op ;p
The colour mixing is still muddy, typography basic, the texture/toner palette is useless/missing, the brush engine is extremely limited etc.
It just doesn't excel at anything.
portalgraphics hasn't capitalised on their user-base at all. The Japanese version of CLIP STUDIO[i.imgur.com] has a material/tool browser which connects online to a user database of brushes, textures, patterns, models, tools, manga and other materials - users can charge a fee or give away their content for free. That's a huge deal.
When oC came to Steam I was really excited for Steam Workshop and user sharing... but I just don't see portalgraphics ever making use of it.
If you want to see CLIP's userbase, just check out http://www.pixiv.net. Almost all the top artists are using either CLIP/SAI/Photoshop or even Painter! Finding a decent openCanvas user is rare as most of them have already moved on.
Ah but you'd be missing out on powerful features such as perspective/rotation and field-of-view (which is very hard to simulate with a cheaper camera lens!)
But I agree, it is fiddly! There's actually an input doll for CLIP which is quite cool and allows a more natural posing experience. Also gimmicky but cool, QUMARION[www.clip-studio.com]
Sorry, it's called comilabo plus... And it may take some searching as it's beta.. It's on portalgraphics site. It's a zip file download.
Corel Painter, Adobe Photoshop, and Sai are definitely the tools of popularity. I've seen amazing art out of lots of software, though, so I'm leaning on personal choice as to what software will do what for the individual. I thought the nodal options in Blackink were amazing, but the layers aren't nodal.. Which is unfortunate. Also, isn't inkfish vector painting?
Well, one would figure that if you're trying to apply such perspective tricks, you've already gotten a good enough grasp of how perspective works, anyway.
And I dunno, that QUMARION seems a tad TOO gimmicky. Don't get me wrong, I love robots, and I find the guy's simplistic design to be pretty cool. But in terms of function, it screams too much like a novelty for those who got money to spare. I didn't find any info on that page, but that thing doesn't look cheap AT ALL.
If you mean OC is in the same state as it was when it had co-op, that being OC1... I have to GREATLY disagree. While it is valid to argue OC may lack features existant on competitors, saying it's the same as OC1 is like saying Windows has changed NOTHING since 3.1.
The problem with OC isn't as much as what it can do... but what it has by default, which I agree to be on the poor side. The default brushes are lackluster, and the default UI config isn't all that inviting.
Actually, that's what led me to give away THIS BRUSH PACK[fav.me]. OC6's brush engine is capable of a lot, and I'm still grasping it's surface. Do they provide brushes that show it? Unfortunately, no.
Agreed, there's much more PGN could've been doing, and having such a content-sharing system would be lovely. Though, as is, I personally would prefer to see them expanding on OC's capabilities. Further improvements to the brush engine, UI tweaks, among other functions OC would benefit from. OC as-is is pretty capable, but I understand it can be improved in many ways.
Wow thanks for posting about InkFish! I'd never heard of it before (guess because its still in beta!) but those have to be the nicest watercolours I've seen! The UI and shortcuts are terrible though, it seems to be aimed at tablets with multi-touch. Looks like a great doodler app though!
Frenden[frenden.myshopify.com] and {HIVATKOZÁS TÖRÖLVE}Kyle have some great watercolour brushes for CLIP/Photoshop but they take a bit of setting-up/effort to use and they're raster.
The best thing about vector painting is the ability to modify a stroke after it's been placed. SAI allows for width changing an reshaping, and CLIP also allows changing its brush type and colour. I do look forward to seeing Black Ink and InkFish develop though.
Ha! Alright maybe I'm being a bit harsh on it, but it's been around over a decade and I honestly don't feel it's changed that much since v3. Sure they push the UI around and introduce nice little features here and there... but it's being completely out paced by the competition. Especially when you look at something like Krita which is free.
SAI has a small feature set, but because it's brilliant at Vector ink strokes and beautiful colour blending its managed to overshadowed OC in just a matter of years. And it's made by one guy whose pretty indifferent and unenthusiastic about programming it! heh
Hey, thanks for the brushes they're pretty neat!
Thank you, Fontes and Shoes for brush pack links.
Shoes, I guess I see things differently. I don't really see Opencanvas much in the competition. Maintaining that forum has got to take some people. I see Opencanvas more of the learning and prove it software. Vector tools that allow modification of strokes might take away from the prove it aspect. I see the unique forum as a piece of the software. That is, due to the unique abilities of the forum, I think of a person using the software yet not using the forum as a person not yet utilizing the software. The very fact of actions from start of a piece to end of a piece showing the artist's work and the artist work for anyone on the Internet to observe and analyze is a strong feature. There is no expectation of audio like in YouTube, and the viewers of the forum will be appreciaters of art or people looking for potential freelance options. The art popularity is defined by likes and favorites, so anyone in the world with Internet and the software can be number one for a day. (It seems to me that it is one of the fairest art forums on the Internet.)
Also, every feature that is introduced has to play well on the forum. Think of how much testing and bug fixing that takes.
I'm just glad Opencanvas is a hybrid of prove it and honestly useful. There's something to be said about being experienced enough to not take all of your tools to the jobsite.
With all the distractions life brings, hitting deadlines is hard. Getting things done is really important. At the end of the day work is judged by its final finished state and not by the process used.
Anyway, I'm not sure that the event playback really brings to the table to be honest (and ou don't even need to own openCanvas to watch them).
Once you've seen a few, they're all the same! Forgive my cynicism..
- start with a scribble sketch or import a scanned drawing
- add layers and paint flats inside masked areas
- flip horizontal a lot
- add a gradient layer (blue-to-orange for bonus points!) set to overlay
- add some clouds/grain noise filters
- resize image by 25%
- publish
How much do you really learn? And which tools showcase something unique and/or exclusive to openCanvas?
If you wanted to learn a particular workflow, you'd benefit much more by watching a tutorial from your favourite artist on YouTube or Patreon. And even then, workflows are hugely personal things and what works for one artist might not work at all for the next.
The original topic question was, "Which is better? OpenCanvas 6 or Manga Studio 5?"
Well, CLIP Studio out performs openCanvas in every aspect (bar event playback - which adds nothing to the creation process) and it costs $10 less!
Take from that what you will
The forum doesn't bring anything to the table if you don't use it. Same for behance, YouTube, Google+, Facebook, deviantart, or Twitter. I plan on using it in the future because of the value I see in it, most especially when profile links are combined with Google+, a website, or deviantart.
Not everyone uses those steps, though they are common.
I own MS4, MS5, OC, MangaLabO, and others. I wouldn't mind acknowledging the merits of Illuststudio, but the rewrite to combine Illuststudio and ComiStudio which is being raved as Clipstudio is frought with performance problems and even worse, is only a piece of the true suite in Japan which English speakers have no access to.
Krita is a different animal, exceptional for digital painting, but for illustrating.. Commercial intention full of time deadlines, acceptable loss, and bursts of focus, maybe Opencanvas is nicer.
In the end, we have our opinions, right? A job I used to do called for Photoshop use. Yet into the job, I found the limited feature set of Photoshop Elements which loaded far faster was all I needed. I saved a lot of time doing the work in Elements and ultimately worked smarter. Sure, Clipstudio or better yet, Photoshop, Painter, or Krita would be great for final painting, but the initial work would be far faster for many to do in a smaller and more responsive program
Well yeah, the reason why I had yet to buy CSP is because I already use OC primarily, but at 15 bucks? Never hurts to have a backup. XD
As for keeping a forum, it doesn't take all that much, to be honest. Two or three guys as most could handle it. Hell, I'm sure they could get volunteers to do it for free by giving them a OC key!
And true, the japanese forum may be usable, but not everyone will bother to check the japanese site to see if there's anything different, and this excluding the rather archaic forum platform. Honestly, a forum created with Proboards has more features than that.
Well, as I've said multiple times throughout this thread, I'm obviously biased towards OC, though at least I got reasons for it. Been using it forever (though I jumped from OC2 straight to OC4), and got so used to it that putting my hands on anything else feels awkward. I do admit that CSP has overall more features, but those are for the most part stuff I can do without (but of course, this is my personal perspective on the matter).
Also, this might not be a big deal to those experienced in digital art, but for begginers, having a UI that doesn't slap you in the face with a bajillion icons that you'll never need to use can feel overwhelming. That's even partially why I went with OC instead of going mainstream with Photoshop. It's simple to use and to look at. I like that quite a bit.
This is my UI config, btw: http://prntscr.com/5h74ss
I only wish we could shrink window sizes further, but it's on my list of things to suggest to them. I can wait till they fix the bugs and bring tones back.
Actually, they cost around the same. The thing is that the Yen dropped considerably, so the price in dollars is outdated. XD
I do have to admit, though, PGN better either add more stuff to OC or cut the price a lil' bit.
(I use a hotkey to launch CLIP (Win+C), then launch openCanvas 5.5 and then openCanvas 6 Steam edition. They all take about the same.)
https://vid.me/9hiJ
Not sure I follow? It's incredibly stable and it even automatically generates backup versions in the background!
The *only* difference between the English and Japanese versions is the access to the database of user created material. I own and translate the Japanese version (as do many others!).
Yea.. but.. CLIP out performs openCanvas. That's a fact, not opinion! Do some of your own tests with 20000x20000 canvases @ 600dpi + 100 layers and see which is quicker and who crashes first. CLIP has incredible performance. On technical merit alone it's better.
I dunno (other than playback) is there anything oC can do which CLIP can't? And remember CLIP is $10 cheaper!
As for loading times, CSP takes a bit longer than OC, but it's like a second or two, it's not worth mentioning at all.
But don't get me wrong, OC does have it's stability issues, specially OC6. It's a lot better now, but there are still a few things to fix. I haven't done any stress tests like the one you mentioned, but I RARELY go over 4000px to begin with and use 300dpi by default.
There is at least ONE thing CSP has that I REALLY wish OC implements in the future, though: that mesh transform feature (OC only has Free Transform). I remember asking PGN for enhancements to Free Transform, though working a tad differently than CSP's Mesh.
Another thing that's currently hurting OC badly is the fact that it has nearly ZERO GPU usage. It's all CPU-based, which is kinda archaic for a GRAPHICS software. I assume CSP makes use of the GPU.
Oh well, a matter of gathering people up, take them outta the office and hit them with a stick a couple times.
THEY WILL DO!!! XD
I also think you're right about the OpenCanvas brush engine.. They don't do justice in advertising how good it is.
@Shoes, you've certainly done some homework. I don't neccessarily agree with you're conclusions, but I know you've done your homework. Generally, saying a software is outstanding when it's graphics related is almost certainly directly related to using one of 7 graphics card series, intel hd, intel baytrail, ati, ati workstation, new 'amd', nvidia, or nvidia workstation. I don't know which series you're using with Clip Studio, but I am sure it isn't what I'm using. The only advantage to CPU only processing is you only have amd and intel to deal with when programming and testing, and some companies ignore testing on amd. With less variables, you can get closer to matching stability when compared over time with a much larger company's software.
Shoes, maybe you're right about CSP outperforming with more ideal hardware, but certainly not on all current hardware of the last 5 years. So the real answer is try it out, if CSP has no quirks or repeating performance problems, then Clip Studio is better, otherwise OpenCanvas is better.
I didn't realize you're using the suite from Japan and translating it, that sounds a bit overdoing it. Much like playing Phantasy Star II Online in translated English. When I've got the cost of the special version for psvita, I'll get it and play it in the default Japanese.
Of all your arguments, I thought one of your strongest was mischief being taken over by Foundry. Modo is a foundry take over, and you can see the fx software they have is amazing. Still, until I see a fully nodal 2D software like Houdini FX is fully nodal, none of the progress will sound that mind blowing. Fully nodal is amazing, a true testament to digital innovation even decades past it's inclusion.