Pick your meta!

[Spyderman]

I know this is going to be controversial but hear me out...

I don't think that a game like Robocraft can ever be "balanced". With variations in cpu, weapon type, weapon level, movement type, different bot building methods the only time it is truly balanced is if you have two players both using the exact same bot from the factory with the same weapon power (and none of the other 8 people get involved). It is basically never going to be balanced in the way that two players in Quake with 100 health and rocket launchers is balanced.

There always has been and always will be a meta bot type (usually some variation of drone/tesseract/heli-drone or whatever). Freejam is locked into an arms race trying to nerf whatever the current meta is because everyone complains about it, while the players are always actively trying to adapt and find the most effective bot they can. For reference, currently I would say the meta bot type is essentially a drone with rotors on the back and the most OP gun is T5 rail.

Can you use other bots/guns and do well with them? Of course you can. However, as you start climbing the rankings and seeing platoons of the really highly ranked players who are playing seriously and trying to win, you see the same type of bots over and over again because they are the latest OP flavour of the month meta.

What I would suggest is that instead of trying to "balance" the game they just pick the meta that makes the game most fun and go with it. I realise what you consider "fun" is subjective but as a community we could probably reach some sort of consensus.

So here's the question, what would you want the OP meta bot to be?

Think about this carefully, don't just immediately say whatever your favourite bot type is. You might think "I fly plasma bomber planes so I want that to be the OP meta" but if it was then most other players would be flying plasma bombers too and there would be no one on the ground for you to bomb (and most people that were on the ground would have flak to counter the meta plasma bombers everywhere).

Pretend that once you've answered you have to uninstall and can never play again, this is not about making your preferred bot type OP so that you can sealclub everyone, it's about what would make the game the most fun for the most people. Assume that no matter what you pick, you'll still be able to do well with any bot and have fun with it, in the same way that you don't HAVE to use a T5 railgun or a helidrone right now, you can use a ghost tesla or a SMG mech or mortar car or whatever and still top the score by just being skilled even though your bot isn't meta.

I'm not going to muddy the waters by saying what I'd choose to be the meta, the question is what do you want it to be?

[BoneBreaker]

When sprinters were first introduced and they were the meta because no one knew how to really deal with them, it was a cool meta, especially since sprinters came in many forms and always has a potential to look good.

Nowadays the sprinter legs are a movementpart like any other with its pros and obvious cons but the time when maps were big dammmnnn were they fun to play.

[d3c0y]

thing i keep seeing poking in here and there is, 'we want new maps/weapons/modules/blocks', with the issue being that no, these things should not be looked at or considered UNTIL what they have in the game already is balanced out.

When i 1st started playing, we had multi weapon loadout/heal/respawn already, think megas had JUST been removed, had that spiral tree of level up to unlock new item. played a ground hover as 1st bot, with just t1 lasers, and was competitive in BA at least. Managed to make that hover tank fly and turned into a bomber. Rails suddenly became an annoyance, but they were nothing like they are now, yes they blew holes in you, no they didn't rip your bot in half in 1 shot, even max tier. Flak was either not around or not annoying.

Ranting but meh, nothing back then except the older drones, was remotely as annoying to vs or stupidly over powered(mSMG/rail), most things seemed viable, if you were willing to learn about damage redirection/tri-force, your bots only got better.

Not a fan of the "mega is endgame" crud. They should be wound back to what they used to be, for lasers, plasma and rails, and all tiers of those re-balanced to reflect. Wings used to actually be good, rolls, flips and you actually had to make clever use thrusters to get the most out of it. Only movement part i rarely saw would have been ski's.

Not saying balance was perfect back then, but seems it was a hell of alot closer than now.

[Spyderman]

Originally posted by BoneBreaker:

When sprinters were first introduced and they were the meta because no one knew how to really deal with them, it was a cool meta, especially since sprinters came in many forms and always has a potential to look good.

Nowadays the sprinter legs are a movementpart like any other with its pros and obvious cons but the time when maps were big dammmnnn were they fun to play.

I have flashbacks to that every time I see someone using one of those ostriches. That was a fun one.

Originally posted by d3c0y:

Ranting but meh, nothing back then except the older drones, was remotely as annoying to vs or stupidly over powered(mSMG/rail), most things seemed viable, if you were willing to learn about damage redirection/tri-force, your bots only got better.

Yeah "the meta back then was drones" describes about 95% of Robocraft history. The question I'm asking is - if you had to pick something to be meta, what would it be? For the good of the game as a whole, not for your own personal benefit.

Think about... Is the game more fun when people are mostly on the ground or mostly in the air? Is it more fun when people are mostly staying as far as possible from each other and sniping or is it more fun when people are mostly trying to get close to each other and tesla/ion etc? Is it more fun when people are using sustained damage guns that pick people apart bit by bit like smg/chainguns/protoseekers etc or is it more fun when people are using bursty high damage guns that 1-shot people like mega plasma/mega rail/tesla etc?

What would you pick to be meta? (if you don't pick then it will default to drones)

Assume that all bot types will still be viable no matter what the meta is.

[kroun]

i would say, any robot that's really easy to make, offers many ways to build, and with a weapon thats not 1-hit-kill (and not a flying robot). this would make it easier to play with the meta-robot, without having to buy one from factory (this will make less robots look the same / being exactly the same robot). and with the weapon not being 1-hit-kill, players would be able to fight back, retreat, get a chance to get healed.
(guns that kill within very short period of time, almost killing your robot in 1 hit:
ION (if they werent so slow, they would actually be good, remember when they had a firerate of 2 shots per. second? remember piranhas? well, today they're a slower short-range version of rail.
tesla (not many people use this today, but the ninja stars where annoying),
mortar (but they cant hurt flying robots, which makes them okay, except when paired with flak)
rail(current meta, these annoying guns can tear your robot in half in 1 shot, and, well, why do we even think of them as snipers? they're not snipers, they're machine-guns))
new players should be able to play as meta-bots too.

so, i guess what im asking for is:
movement type:
wheels: easy to build, fast, can look great.
mech legs: easy to build, high health
hover: easy to build, decent speed, can hide the movement parts, so you have an easier time escaping, can avoid plasma easier since they hover off the ground.

weapon:
laser: one of the "basic" guns, this gun is powerful and easy to use, and new players can use it, since its tier 1 - 5.
chain gun: this is an awesome gun, and doesnt kill you in 1 hit
nano: because then players can help their teammates, and have a chance of surviving when their movement parts is lost

what im NOT hoping for:
movement type:
wings: i dont like the meta being flying robots, since some weapons cant be used against flying robots, but most can be used against robots on the ground
this way, no-one will be "locked out of the game", like the robot with mortar vs 5 planes, or the car with protoseekers vs 5 copters. especially in team deathmatch.
rotor blades: same as wings
ski: but it would be fun. (just imagine the meta being ski-teslas)

weapons:
LOML: no-one likes being killed by LOML.
Rail: its OP, but if they would nerf it, it could be fun (instead of being a weapon used for offense, it should be support, helping protect from distance, or shoot of weapons of fighting robots)
proto-seeker: same as LOML
ION: we DONT want piranhas (and new players cant play with this meta, since it requires too many legendary parts (or epics)
tesla: ninja stars! nothing fun about it, and tesla vs tesla can be unfair sometimes (whoever hits first wins the fight)
Mortar: just no
flak: for this to work, the meta should be flying robots ... which would result in flying robots with flak cannons ... it doesnt make sense

i never thought i would make a long post

[igothis2210]

Originally posted by kroun:

i would say, any robot that's really easy to make, offers many ways to build, and with a weapon thats not 1-hit-kill (and not a flying robot). this would make it easier to play with the meta-robot, without having to buy one from factory (this will make less robots look the same / being exactly the same robot). and with the weapon not being 1-hit-kill, players would be able to fight back, retreat, get a chance to get healed.
(guns that kill within very short period of time, almost killing your robot in 1 hit:
ION (if they werent so slow, they would actually be good, remember when they had a firerate of 2 shots per. second? remember piranhas? well, today they're a slower short-range version of rail.
tesla (not many people use this today, but the ninja stars where annoying),
mortar (but they cant hurt flying robots, which makes them okay, except when paired with flak)
rail(current meta, these annoying guns can tear your robot in half in 1 shot, and, well, why do we even think of them as snipers? they're not snipers, they're machine-guns))
new players should be able to play as meta-bots too.

so, i guess what im asking for is:
movement type:
wheels: easy to build, fast, can look great.
mech legs: easy to build, high health
hover: easy to build, decent speed, can hide the movement parts, so you have an easier time escaping, can avoid plasma easier since they hover off the ground.

weapon:
laser: one of the "basic" guns, this gun is powerful and easy to use, and new players can use it, since its tier 1 - 5.
chain gun: this is an awesome gun, and doesnt kill you in 1 hit
nano: because then players can help their teammates, and have a chance of surviving when their movement parts is lost

what im NOT hoping for:
movement type:
wings: i dont like the meta being flying robots, since some weapons cant be used against flying robots, but most can be used against robots on the ground
this way, no-one will be "locked out of the game", like the robot with mortar vs 5 planes, or the car with protoseekers vs 5 copters. especially in team deathmatch.
rotor blades: same as wings
ski: but it would be fun. (just imagine the meta being ski-teslas)

weapons:
LOML: no-one likes being killed by LOML.
Rail: its OP, but if they would nerf it, it could be fun (instead of being a weapon used for offense, it should be support, helping protect from distance, or shoot of weapons of fighting robots)
proto-seeker: same as LOML
ION: we DONT want piranhas (and new players cant play with this meta, since it requires too many legendary parts (or epics)
tesla: ninja stars! nothing fun about it, and tesla vs tesla can be unfair sometimes (whoever hits first wins the fight)
Mortar: just no
flak: for this to work, the meta should be flying robots ... which would result in flying robots with flak cannons ... it doesnt make sense

i never thought i would make a long post

You say Lasers is fun because everyone can use it even new players, which just makes the point how meta it is, and how OP it is. Everyone uses seems to use what is OP so that it's easier to be effective, rather than having a balance that takes at least some practice to use.

You claim Rail Gun OP, but I don't know if you use the gun or not, or if you're just hating on it because it's effective and you don't even use the gun because you prefer others, so you hate on the Rail Gun because it annoys your gameplay experience...but I must add the only Rail Gun that is truly "OP" by definition, is the Tier 5 Rail Gun, so please be specific, because the last thing we want is the Tiers below T5 to be too weak. Just nerf T5 Rail Gun is fine. In fact nerf all T5 weapons so they aren't so powerful compared to T4.

Not only does each weapon seem to have a firing problem every update (ending up as Nerf or Buff issues...), but every Tier also gives the guns more individual problems from their Tier stats alone (which also ends up as Nerf and Buff issues...).

[kroun]

Originally posted by igothis2210:

You say Lasers is fun because everyone can use it even new players, which just makes the point how meta it is, and how OP it is. Everyone uses seems to use what is OP so that it's easier to be effective, rather than having a balance that takes at least some practice to use.

You claim Rail Gun OP, but I don't know if you use the gun or not, or if you're just hating on it because it's effective and you don't even use the gun because you prefer others, so you hate on the Rail Gun because it annoys your gameplay experience...but I must add the only Rail Gun that is truly "OP" by definition, is the Tier 5 Rail Gun, so please be specific, because the last thing we want is the Tiers below T5 to be too weak. Just nerf T5 Rail Gun is fine. In fact nerf all T5 weapons so they aren't so powerful compared to T4.

Not only does each weapon seem to have a firing problem every update (ending up as Nerf or Buff issues...), but every Tier also gives the guns more individual problems from their Tier stats alone (which also ends up as Nerf and Buff issues...).

i know, its only the tier 5 rail thats the problem, but do you see any other rail? when people say "rail", we probably all think of tier 5 rail, not tiers 1 - 4. i guess the same is for lasers: how often do you see lasers that's not tier 5? not often, because its OP. all tier 5 weapons is OP (excpet ION). thats a problem, because all we see is tier 5, no-one is using the lower-tier weapons, because freejam made all guns of higher tiers better than the lower tiers.
i remember when all weapons had differences across the tiers: the tier 4 nano had high energy usage, the tier 2 was free to use. i had a robot with both tier 2 and 4 nanos.
why? because the higher tiers wasnt just a better version of the gun. this helped make different tupes of robots. you could have nanos as secondary weapon, and you could have nano as primary weapon. but now its just, how big a gun can you fit on your robot.

[Security Cam #7]

Creativity

[kroun]

i finally made a ski bot that can move

[Spyderman]

Lets try to sidestep arguing about which weapons are overpowered/underpowered right now because that changes with every patch, the question is - what do you want the meta to be?

Originally posted by Smelly Fish:

Creativity

Yeah never going to happen, there will always be a particular type of bot or weapon type that is on top of the pile and the top tier players will gravitate towards it because it will give them a slight advantage. At best you can hope for a rock paper scissors balance where nothing is on top because there is a hard counter to everything, but then you're just totally at the mercy of the matchmaking.

[igothis2210]

Originally posted by Spyderman:

Lets try to sidestep arguing about which weapons are overpowered/underpowered right now because that changes with every patch, the question is - what do you want the meta to be?

Originally posted by Smelly Fish:

Creativity

Yeah never going to happen, there will always be a particular type of bot or weapon type that is on top of the pile and the top tier players will gravitate towards it because it will give them a slight advantage. At best you can hope for a rock paper scissors balance where nothing is on top because there is a hard counter to everything, but then you're just totally at the mercy of the matchmaking.

What you said was nice to read, but unfortunately for you it's not really accurate. Saying there's a counter to everything is wrong. Yes, every game in existence there is a counter, but the fact of the matter, and case in point is that the meta build in Robocraft is the best option. So what you mean to say is, the game is like "Rock, Paper, Scissors, and Nuclear Satellite Missile," since the OP build is Hybrid Drones with Plasmas, and if you don't use the build, the game will be frustrating...especially for an OH so RARE Artbot. The game surprises me in the sense that the Title is cooler than the game itself, and when they say, don't judge a book by its cover, well in this case it's don't judge a game by its title. Anyways, the Studio still has potential and hopefully time to make an improved older version of gameplay for Robocrafts players.

Basically if Reel Big Kris is reading the Forums, I think he can see what a massive majority of players want, and that's an improved version of Robocraft from the past. A version without all the flaws, and with proper balancing with proper mechanics involved as we've mentioned.

Look, if Reel Big Kris hasn't told Freejam that "2 Billion players" (for example) want the old version back but improved, and done right...then I don't know what else to say. I mean in that case, we couldn't puff enough smoke to make it clear we shouldn't smoke too much cuz it will kill everything off. That could be what we have here, but we do have to be patient to know for sure. I give this game until January 2020 until I giveup on it or if it's good enough by then, I will keep it on my playlist.

[Spyderman]

I'll format it just for you...

There will always be a particular type of bot or weapon type that is on top of the pile and the top tier players will gravitate towards it because it will give them a slight advantage.

At best you can hope for a rock paper scissors balance where nothing is on top because there is a hard counter to everything, but then you're just totally at the mercy of the matchmaking.

Once again though, I would be tremendously grateful if you could answer the question posed by this thread, if you had to choose (for the good of the game, to bring the most enjoyment to the most players) what would you want the meta to be?

[igothis2210]

Originally posted by Spyderman:

I'll format it just for you...

There will always be a particular type of bot or weapon type that is on top of the pile and the top tier players will gravitate towards it because it will give them a slight advantage.

At best you can hope for a rock paper scissors balance where nothing is on top because there is a hard counter to everything, but then you're just totally at the mercy of the matchmaking.

Once again though, I would be tremendously grateful if you could answer the question posed by this thread, if you had to choose (for the good of the game, to bring the most enjoyment to the most players) what would you want the meta to be?

I gave my answer awhile ago, but it's not relevant for Robocraft, and it's clear what the players want, and the route Freejam should take. Freejam has to know their own potential, and they are best at Casual gameplay than hardcore. Which they can perfect their skills on by developing something everyone can enjoy for fun. Robocraft isn't known for serious competition and what I mentioned before was highly competitive...but I can enjoy the game if it can do Casual well, and done right, just as some of the players here have mentioned. Many games tend to have OP options, but they have so many options in the game that players enjoy, that not everyone chooses the Meta OP options.

In this case, I would suggest making the weapons, and new weapons with new mechanics for the game...a fun experience that attracts players not to choose the Meta OP bot all the time, but to enjoy the other options they have. This depends on the skills Freejam has to get creative with their weapons and mechanics to standout, so if they can't make attractive content for players...then they will continue to just choose Meta OP builds because nothing else attracts their interest enough. Some players don't play for fun...so they don't choose anything else. Freejam can do it if they know what to do next.

[Spyderman]

Respectfully, that doesn't answer my question at all. You seem to be just complaining that the weapons aren't varied or interesting enough, and I agree with you, but that wasn't what I asked. Already we are in a situation where the vast majority of players do not use the meta bot type or current OP weapon, instead favouring the bot/weapon that they enjoy using most. That will not change if you change what the meta is, you will still have most players not using it. It's only the hardcore few top players that use any advantage available to increase their chances of winning that will use the meta because it's the meta.

The question is what bot type or weapon would be the most fun for the most players to be the meta if you had to choose?

[KingKickAss]

I pick 2014.

[BoneBreaker]

Originally posted by Spyderman:

The question is what bot type or weapon would be the most fun for the most players to be the meta if you had to choose?

It is kinda amazing how you could see my first comment as a format to form an opinion and people somehow go offtopic.