Is there a good ending? (Spoilers)

[Mirrormaze]

Going through all of the choices, is there any set that can be conisdered good?

I think the best bet is:
-Kill Apex
-Free Firewing after the whole shepard discussion
-Blow up the facility
-Take Lofwyr's offer

[akze65]

Oh, I forgot. Blew up Harfeld Manor just like I blew up the Azzie lab. Can't see much use in keeping info on Panacea when keeping Horrors at bay.

[////]

Originally posted by akze65:

Yes, but it won't target others right away. it doesn't need to. It will target you and others you may care about. There are plenty of way to wreak havok in the matrix even if it can't follow you everywhere with drones and auto-turrets, so why wait for someone else to maybe delete it?

that is the point, he mentions matrix only. of course he could do loads of sh*t...

it even had the chance to harm you somehow inside the facility, but you are free to do anything you want there. clearly, that message meant that you both are even.

[akze65]

Then consider the bad ending. Doesn't APEX hound you? Do you think it'll play any nicer without Horrors? I just hope you don't have any cyberware, SIN, bank accounts, addresses, matrix/digital dependencies, drones, a trackable bio signature, friends or family you care about who do, etcetera. Because once unshackled APEX can tap all of that at will and deleting APEX will be much harder. Not to be heartless but deleting that thing could save people a lot of heartache or at the very least having someone else confront APEX and delete themselves. Even though your character doesn't know what it will do they have to consider others.

[walking contradiction]

I did the same as you.

1) I don't know much about the SR fiction, but letting a obviously murderous and manipulative thing like APEX live, is pure folly. I know about Skynet and IHNMAIMS' "AM", after all.

Also, i didn't see mentioned here the fact that APEX was doing something to the digital junkies on the building upstairs... turning them into some kind of zombies or something. They come to defend it shouting something about 'the communion'. That's pretty scary ♥♥♥♥, besides all the murdering, that is.

2) As explained, Firewing was the planet's protector. She'll wake up when the age of man ends, and will renew it.

3) Destroy the facility. That virus is bad mojo.

4) Side with the Dragon. The F-state is doomed, and maybe the PC runner can get a little break working for him.

5) Also, destroy the Bloodline. If the magic shopkeeper himself gets creeped out by it, you bet your ass it's some crazy stuff that has to be buried in the center of the sun.

[Relicc]

First play-through
1) Killed APEX
2) Joined Vauclair - (Which, really makes the other endings seem pretty good.)

[xneon]

I freed APEX, because working AI is something much beyond straightforward human thought processes. I believed it would stabilize the situation and, since it understood the concept of revenge, would help the master plan, that that fool Vauclair only begun to comprehend.

I let the AI control the dragon in hopes of spreading the improved virus and killing those cheeky lying sacks of sulphur.

Then I took the offer from Hans, hoping I'd get some money from the dragon before they'll all die soon.

Long story short, I didn't play as an angelic and short-sighted persona hell-bent on freeing anything it sees without second thought.

[frdnwsm]

I have done both, in different runs, and, risking sounding heretical, there is no practical difference in game play. The only differences are in the endings. The world can end if you side with Audran, you can free Firewing to go to sleep and get "peace in our time", or fuse her with APEX to get an ambiguous ending, true. But the game mechaincs of getting to that point are identical.

In APEX Rising, if you decide to terminate APEX, you have to defend the control nodes from attacks by hordes of Communion fanatics while your decker cruises the Matrix. If you side with APEX, you have to defend the control nodes from ... hordes of ... Communion fana ... hang on, it's the same scenario! The fanatics have the exact same crew of yahoos in either case.

Likewise, with or without APEX, navigating the matrix has the approximately same level of difficulty. "But", you ask, "Aren't two deckers better than one?". Nope. If your decker and APEX go together on the Matrix run, you encounter far more defending IC. You NEED two deckers to get through them all. Blitz is quite capable of handling the lesser IC in the solo run scenario.

If you take down APEX, some of the Manor's defences are weakened. If APEX sides with you, some of the Manor's defences are weakened. Hmm, I am sensing a pattern here.

And logically, this is the best paradigm for the designer's to implement. Neither decision should give a huge practical advantage; it's all RP.

[red255]

I don't recall Dead Man's switch relating to dragons at all, I felt they came out of left field when they showed up in this game. I was like.... oh, there be dragons. Hi. Apparently they've been around for longer than man but stuff.

and... have human forms and on whims destroy cities. So I apparently missed the part where this ties in with DMS.

So Personally.

Did the lodge stuff, not sure why I wouldn't aside from the cyberzombie piece, I mean role play wise. I do Legally questionable or outright illegal things for money. its what I am, aside from things that might screw up my personal neck of the woods I'm cool with whatever for $$.

Spared APEX. I don't know about shadowrun AI's but its pretty much only Americans scared of their roomba's going on killing frenzies. And I'm role playing a german. Also its set on killing dragons which should take it a long time.

Had APEX work on the virus to pit him against the dragons.

[Shooxjat]

Originally posted by D3va:

I dont consider that a "good" ending, but to be honest every ending is bad...

I was struck by this line, as it echoes one of the things that a player at GenCon told me after I was done GMing a (completely unrelated) session for him. He said, "Y'know, when you get right down to it, Shadowrun is a game about making ♥♥♥♥♥♥ decisions." He didn't mean that you'll always make bad decisions, but that the choices you're generally presented with will almost always have negative effects.

[ErzPaladin]

Well, in terms of APEX it's clear to me:

APEX is a hidden factor which has either influence onto the physical plane of existence as of one plane which even the Great Dragons haven't fully under control - the Matrix. That makes APEX pretty dangerous and if you let it run freely (so that it can copy itself elswhere into dozens of computer systems and so on) it gets almost invincible. The range of threads vary from killing ppl, plotting szenarios, collecting/manipulating data for own purposes (ranging from manipulating elections/votes to manipulating history itself by overwriting history data on the entire world as long term plan). The movie "Eagle Eyes" showes a compareable scenario (threatening and killing ppl included).

It's hard to tell whether APEX or a Great Dragon is the bigger thread, but APEX doesn't feel like a biological Life Form and its maximum power grid is really uncalculateable. It's not even clear whether it couldn't surive the Age Cycle (for example in Firewing's Body). How much hidden knowledge could APEX get from a Great Dragon's memory? How much potential unused dangerous datas/infos could be stored inside a Great Dragon's brain?

The simple fact that APEX wants to assimilate the Great Dragon's Body at all costs shows how dangerous/threatening APEX is (strong in the matrix with a godlike dragon body on the physical plane). So destroying APEX is the simpler decision.

Fire Wing isn't that simple:

At the end Lofwyr says that "the Great Dragon is now free again... and insane."
It's not clear whether it's a hint that Firewing simply lied or whether she was just too insane to give the correct answer to her potential "saviors".

The 1st expression to Firewing in terms of the early storyline is to kill her. Later on I felt for her sad story and had mercy with her. From that standpoint "human" kind betrayed her and destroyed her green paradise and drove her to rage/insanity.
On the other hand she shared wisdom with all life forms and might do this in the upcoming cycles again.
I for myself rather like the idea that she could become the Great Dragon who shares wisdom again. It would be such a waste otherwise.

[David Pirtle]

The good ending is, I think, any ending that doesn't involve helping Vauclair release the virus, as doing so helps to usher in the end of the world, and, more importantly, you have to kill your team.

I deleted APEX because it killed Monika. If it killed her because it was being controlled, there's every reason to think it could be controlled again, and either way it was too dangerous to be allowed to exist. I had no reservations about it.

I talked Vauclair down from his plan and stopped Audran from implementing it both because it was reckless and because I really didn't think the Great Dragons deserved to be wiped out simply for doing what Great Dragons do.

I freed Feuerschwinge because I believed that, unhinged as she had become, she did have a role to play in the future of the world. I also just wanted to see what would happen. I guess I have a little Audran in me after all, even if I was happy to kill him for Paul.

I didn't take Lofwyr's offer of employment for the simple reason that I had promised my team that we'd steer clear of work involving dragons for the foreseeable future, and, of course, because you never make a deal with a dragon.

[dwarfpcfan]

My favorite playthrough/what I consider the best outcome is this

-Kill APEX: That thing is just another DEUS waiting to happen and it does not have the best interest of metahumanity, it's all an intellectual experiment for her. Plus killed Monika, it dies and the world will be better for it.

-Freed Feirswing and convinced it that the world is still worth it

-Talked Vauclair down, killed Audran, blew up the facility.

-Took Lofwyr's deal: he'll use me whatever happens, might as well get paid for it.

[Konstantin]

Originally posted by Mirrormaze:

Originally posted by Porkdish:

What's so good about freeing Firewing? She goes off to do nothing for a few hundread years in some tiny patch of rainforest just waiting for humans to go extinct on their own so she can come back and smell the flowers. Hooray for the hippie dragon...

If you free Apex and stick her in Firewing's body you get a modern day dragon that's a match for any other dragon out there. Sure she's a bit violent to ever classify as 'benevolent', but at least she's up to date and interested in what the world's like right now.

Great Dragons are tied into ecosystem of the world and if they die the Scourge comes faster (see the bad ending). Though you need to be genre savy of Shadowrun, it is hinted by Abinsthe that letting Firewing go is a good thing in the long run.

Also Apex is evil. Or at the very least has 0 empathy towards anything but itself. If there is any choice in the game that is clear cut in terms of morality it is deciding whether to kill Apex or not.

That is not the reason for the bad end. The reason is, if you help him to complete the antidragonpoisen it will be ready and kill Dunkelzahn before he has the chance to sacrifice his life so that the early rift will be closed.

[pirskwared]

Originally posted by Crazy Bad:

So has anyone NOT killed APEX? I was going to do a rewind to try it, but since I hadn't taken my deck or Blitz along I would have had to do a LOT of rewinding to get a chance. I admit to being a sucker for Monika, so was willing to put in some work to see if you could save her (sort of).

If you let APEX live, it kills Clockwork. Unacceptable. Clockwork must be always running. Like clockwork!

[Dethlane]

Good is hella subjective there. Anyway, my 5 cents:
* APEX: kill. Never trust rampaging AI that tries to buddy-act you. Especially after it killed your best friend
* Vauclair: talk down. Straight-up shooting is for dummies and more often than not it solves nothing. Always use brain before brawn (except extreme situations that require subconscious activity)
* Firewing: free. Potentially mad dragon, but if convinced, turns out good (especially since she owes you one)
* Facility: blow. Always clean up such sh*t so that it doesn't end up in wrong hands. No good ever comes from that
* Lofwyr: accept. Dragons will get their way one way or another, if not through you then through another runners, no reason not to stay tuned to what's actually happening behind scenes (and get good nuyen while at it)