Karma/Cash

[Mr Tattiebojangles]

So I finish DMS campaign, and had some fun with fan made stuff with my Street Samurai Orc. Now I'm playing Dragonfall and having FAR less fun.
It's not because I'm playing a human mage-if anything I'm tempted to go back to DMS and try a mage. And it's not the team characters who are all very interesting.
No it's the 2 things which are entwinned-my inability to hit ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ANYTHING and the game stingyness with Karma & cash.


I don't expect a mage to be a crack shot (that's why Eiger's there) but frankly the spells miss 7/10 times, even though I have a decent score in the stat. I don't get how, when an 8ft troll is next to you, you can miss . It's bollocks. And I can't seem to level up much as Karma values are nothing.
2 Karma for that run for Blitz in the bank. 2!!? And I get 0 money for it-where at absolute worst I could get some cyber/Bioware to help (I know not to go nuts with cybernetics as a mage though so don't worry) IF I COULD AFFORD IT.

It can't be just me who finds this game to be so stingy.

[chriseggroll]

If you're playing a mage, you should have 6/6 or 5/5 in willpower/spellpower during character creation, before you even get any karma, if you're not going to supplement with guns anyway. the occult outfit is available pretty early on, and gives +1 willpower, +1 spellpower i believe, so getting to 9/9 or 10/10 should be pretty easy. The higher level spells also have better accuracy, so if you're still using Flamethrower I at midgame, it's not a surprise you can't hit anything. Also, some of the high level spells require 4 int.

Are you selling all the paydata you get? There's paydata on the first, MKVI, Pharma, humanis, and aztec missions and all give 500 nuyen each basically. you can get 2000 from doing the Doctor's side quest if you paid him off in the Sewers instead of intimidating him. In the mission where you get Blitz, if you go back to the first floor there's a safe he can hack that gives you a smartlink weapon you can sell or use, plus there's ~300 nuyen in there too. Plus, you can sell all the old versions of spells you know when your stats are better, so you shouldn't really be struggling with funds as a mage.

[Graveheart]

Originally posted by Mr Tattiebojangles:

Originally posted by DarkslayerRoy:

Here’s a few tips that should help you out in terms of Nuyen.

Always go for paydata, explore the Matrix to its fullest, that’s usually where you find it. If you really need more do the Lodge mission first and then do their objectives as well as the other group from the phone.

Are you checking your jobs from the computer as well? After completing one of the main 4 for the fund you get a huge chuck of Nuyen. I forgot to do this and ended up getting a huge amount of money that allowed me to go crazy.

Lastly, for a quick buck sell ♥♥♥♥♥ you don’t use anymore. This isn’t a game where you horde anything. If you don’t use it, sell it. You’ll be surprised at how much you can make through this.

For not hitting anything, the aim spell helps a lot as the others have said and also use ley lines to their fullest. If you’re getting geeked from being out in the open get the armor spell. I turned my mage from being a soft puppy to a hellhound from this lol. Also if you want put more points into body.

No, I've all the cash from the full runs (type IV, Kill the Rigger etc.) And got what paydata I've had. It's just not enough. Seriously I don't understand where the money is going-I've bought 1 gun. And 1 set of armour. 3 spells. And some medkits/revive items. That's all-yet I'm still skint, or can't use newer guns/ learn more spells because the stats never high enough.

As for the aim spell-yeah, it would be nice. But I shouldn't need to use it every 2 turns. Otherwise it makes my runners look like 'tards who can't hit for ♥♥♥♥ without a mage.

I have sold a few things but I usually do end up with a few more drugs than I'd like-suppsoe they can be flogged.

One more thing-I've browsed GameFaqs and the ilk-still no wlakthrough? That's really rare.

I'm not sure about the grenade launcher but I think its stat group is rifle. Don't quote me about that though. From what I've seen grenade launchers are very inaccurate to balance out the fact that they have aoe.

Also isn’t it a little redundant to have a grenade launcher and fireball? I can understand using the smg as having some form of a slug thrower is highly recommended but you aren’t a street sam, you’re a mage, you’re expected to being throwing spells out. If you still like the grenade launcher you can give it to Eiger though I believe. Funny enough you can give the minigun to Glory but not Eiger lol.

Wasn't that suit really expensive? I didn't get it because with the armor spell I was already hitting the max so I didn't really need it. The armor I got was cheap and was level 6-8 I think but it wasn’t mage armor.

Edit: Yeah I'm using Light security armor which is armor 6 and gives 10+ hp

[ninjajump]

Why are you using guns at all? if you're a mage its a total waste to put points into guns. I'm playing through for the first time as a human mage on normal and having just finished raising the 50,000 I can say with confidence that I haven't had any of the issues you've had. I started with around 5/5 willpower/spellpower and 5 charisma. went for 6th charisma and then basically everything into willpower and spellpower. I now have 8/7 or something like that and hit maybe 80% of the time wearing the occult robes.

Money was tight at first, but I didn't need it for much. Didn't bother buying any next tier spells until halfway through the game and then bought all the best spells I could that I would actually use (flamethrower, lightning, stun ball, acid stream). always took shaman dude with me for when I needed a boost, used drugs sometimes when I needed an additional AP to cast stun ball.

Really I'm not sure what you're doing wrong exactly, but if you follow ^that^ it should be easy as pie.

[MattStriker]

Many guns are actually better than the powerbolts available at that tech tier, but since you also need to raise the relevant stats it's usually not worth it for a mage. A shaman would get more use out of a gun since most of the charisma spells are support stuff and their basic bolt isn't too great.

[Mr Tattiebojangles]

I should state I haven't done the Aztechnology job yet-if it's a massive payday, maybe it'd be a good idea to do it before Glory's mission. I should also state it's Flamethrower 2-should have made that clear.
I invested in guns because absolutely everything tells you that Mages 'don't just throw spells.' This screamed to me that there was going to be something later on that would prevent me fireball slinging. Hence the investment
Grenade launcher is a rifle? Odd-but thanks for the heads up.
I bought the suit because it was actually higher armour than what I had at that point-it made snes, plus it added to my Charisma, which I thought would come in handy in that mission-lol no, scripted gunfights ahoy. It was about 1,000 odd I think-don't quote me..

So what I've come away with is that the Aim spell is the be all and end all of this game. Rather disapointing. As I said previously, if a buff is needed to carry out day to day activities, how the ♥♥♥♥ did these guys become Runners?

[Graveheart]

Originally posted by Mr Tattiebojangles:

I should state I haven't done the Aztechnology job yet-if it's a massive payday, maybe it'd be a good idea to do it before Glory's mission. I should also state it's Flamethrower 2-should have made that clear.
I invested in guns because absolutely everything tells you that Mages 'don't just throw spells.' This screamed to me that there was going to be something later on that would prevent me fireball slinging. Hence the investment
Grenade launcher is a rifle? Odd-but thanks for the heads up.
I bought the suit because it was actually higher armour than what I had at that point-it made snes, plus it added to my Charisma, which I thought would come in handy in that mission-lol no, scripted gunfights ahoy. It was about 1,000 odd I think-don't quote me..

So what I've come away with is that the Aim spell is the be all and end all of this game. Rather disapointing. As I said previously, if a buff is needed to carry out day to day activities, how the ♥♥♥♥ did these guys become Runners?

Don’t recall the game ever telling you that mages wouldn’t be able to use their spells. Ya the game loves screwing Deckers over, something they’ll hopefully change in Hong Kong but I don’t ever recall mages getting screwed over for focusing just on their spells. For the grenade launcher like I said I’m not sure but it’s not the SMG tree which is why you are having such a hard time hitting with it.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be using a slug thrower it’s just don’t think your slug thrower as your primary, your primary should be your spells.

The aim spell is definitely not the “be all and end all” of the game, it’s just a very helpful bluff. I would say that Haste, Glory’s adrenal ability, and by far anything that does AP damage far, far worse. Seriously those flashbangs are the bane of my life. Hell, my char doesn’t even use the aim spell, I’ve found armor, blindness and actual combat spells much more useful.

[Batzkill]

I am going to guess the game has a horrible RNG. To hit percentages are never mirrored by in game performance. I am hoping that the Kickstarter fixes this somehow, because it can be exceedingly annoying to have pretty high to hit numbers listed and end up missing over and over again. Seems worse in the matrix for whatever reason, as literally sometimes the opposition (who are in the open) become unhittable.

Money is definitely an issue for me in the campaign. But I do like to be a little hybrid on my builds. I would love enemies to drop stuff. Just would feel nice after killing a few guys with nice gear and weapons to get something.

Not that any of this has kept me from enjoying the heck out of the game, but it would be a nice thing to fix.

[Eric_Kei]

AOE's are your friend ;) As it is in the Matrix, AOE accuracy seems to depend more on distance than on actual skill. No reason you can't pack multiple copies of one spell, right?

Note on the Aztech run -- With 6 charisma and Etiquette: Security, you can bypass nearly every fight (wear the security uniforms when you find them). With those and Body 6, the final fight in there becomes optional, too, at least, until you either hack a Matrix node or you hit the switch indicated by the last quest marker...at which point you can just run like hell.

If you really wanna use guns as a mage -- I recommend rifles. Pack a sniper and use it at extreme ranges; use an assault rifle as the other gun. Snipers suck up close, but if you hang back under cover, they quickly reach 99% on far-off enemies. Once its acc drops because the enemies are too close, use a full-auto burst from the AR: If even one shot hits (3-4 has been my average on a pure "guns" character), you do some damage and, more importantly, you force the enemy out of cover.

As for that 'nade launcher - Dunno if it's Rifles or not. The Minigun which becomes available at the endgame, however, IS Rifles, but it requires high STR and Ranged to equip.

[clearbeard]

Aim is vital in meatspace, Sniffer is vital in cyberspace. This is the biggest difference I noted going from DMS to DF, as to hit chances seemed to be slashed to the ground across the board. AoE is also great, as you can both remove the enemy's dodge abilities and flank around cover. Hopefully your money woes are much less now that you can sell stuff! Playing an assault rifle decker I did always feel poor, and not until the endgame could I really afford to buy what I wanted. Once you've paid Alice's fee, you'll get a hefty lump sum from the overflow on the last main mission, so that helps a lot. As half the earnings will put you well above the needed 50k, the balance goes into your pocket.

[kaffekoppen]

I played Dragonfall first so I didn't feel starved for money/karma. Now that I'm playing DMS, I am getting showered with karma and cash. I can't believe how much I get. I've bought everything I could possibly want, and I'm both a superb fighter and decker.

Perhaps they were both too generous in DMS and too stingy in Dragonfall.

[Syrris]

I don't think the personal missions pay off a great deal in terms of karma/cash because they were added post-release and too much extra stuff there could unbalance the campaign (or at least force the devs to rebalance the rest of the campaign). You tend to get unusual gear or additional abilities added to the relevant characters instead.

[RasterOps]

It's a shame when you feel forced to use an editor to better balance a game design. Yes, Karma and Cash is stingy, stingy, stingy. SR HK is more generous with the Karma but even more stingy with the cash.

It particularly annoys me when the designers go out of their way, within dialogue, to espouse how lucrative Shadowrunning is supposed to be. In SR DF I like how the expenses are broken down. How your character, the leader gets a little more. How expenses are covered. How a big portion of the cash is redirected to the fund. Still, it's not enough. Shadowrunners should be rolling in Nuyen.

1. The value of "Pay Data" should be doubled at the very least.
   
2. I never hire a Shadowrunner, can't afford it.
   
3. Shadowrunner fees should be doubled and their expenses should be extra, e.g. A doubled fee, say from 450 to 900 and if they used a consumable the player must pay for that expense as well (Fetish: up to 2500, ESP: 750, Grenades: 175ish).

With respect to Karma, there is barely enough to focus on two skills. So technically, since your character is the leader he should be a single specific class and have the charisma to use Etiquettes. Two skills.

I can understand how the designers might think this is the first chapter in your Shadowrunners career. You shouldn't be able to max two skills and charisma. The player can load his character in the next chapter and continue his development... but there is no next chapter. So it's a balance issue. Not clear as to what the solution could be.

[v0]

Dunno... practically walked through it couple times on Hard and then even with mage on Very Hard. Everything worked just fine and was fun too. Only thing I ever missed is chance to buy same spell twice. Item transfer between team members would've been nice too.

[Eric_Kei]

v0 - You can transfer items between runners in HK (at the start of each run and when you find an item), at least. The items that they *always* begin a run with are non-transferrable, though.

Raster -- I agree with you that HK (in particular) is really stingy when it comes to cash...but your 3rd idea would have us spending a lot MORE...o_O

[RasterOps]

Eric - Thus the need for more cash from runs and especially "Pay Data". It just seems odd that a runner would accept Y450 for a run and not even be reimbursed for their expenses. It's a losing proposition.

Technically Dragonfall has more than enough money, if you consider not having to raise 50k Nuyen. Even so I was able fill all cyber slots by end-game (Hard); was considering the Suprathyroid but couldn't afford it. In HK at end-game I've got 4, count 'em 4 cyber-slots filled. Still it was enough to do the job.