Leylines do not seem to work

[Stormfox]

I had the suspicion that they did nothing all along, and tested it a while ago during bloodlines by having Dietrich stand right on the big runes in the sacrificial chamber / prison thingy for a while. Not only did I not see any difference in the spell effects but the promised cooldown reduction was completely absent, too.

I mean, even if they worked as advertised, 99% of leylines are in such awful postions that the benefits would never be worth standing on them, but this was one of the few places where they could actually be useful.

What am I missing?

[Phoenix7786]

Hmm are you sure? I just tested a large ley-line and Dietrich's Aim spell went from 1 turn CD to 0 turn CD while I was on it. His spell accuracy went up and so did the damage for it.

[Stormfox]

I just played around with one in a usermade map. It seems they do "something". Aim seems to lose its 1t cooldown and offensive spells gain miniscule amounts of hit chance, but that's it. No further cd reductions were observable, and even if that ap-loss-boost worked as advertised, it only affects a handful of offensive spells that most of the time are completely useless when standing on a ley line.

In short, ley lines seem to not work fully as intended, and even if they would, they are so incredibly underwhelming that they could as well not be in the game.

[Incunabulum]

Other than cooldowns, I think the only thing leylines are supposed to do is increase your chance to do full damage/reduce your chance for a half damage result.

[Stormfox]

Originally posted by Incunabulum:

Other than cooldowns, I think the only thing leylines are supposed to do is increase your chance to do full damage/reduce your chance for a half damage result.

Which is something that never happens. It is hard to actually USE a combat spell anyways, since they have such awful ranges (and relatively bad hit chances for something that gets crossreferenced against a stat most npcs should have less of than quickness/dodge) and the very few interesting ones cost 2 or even 3 ap. Doing all that from some arbitrary point somewhere in the middle of a room is somewhat of a stretch.


On a tangent:

I have looked through the spells themselves some more. Almost all of them suck or only get good in their highest level versions. Aim is one good example: +12% to hit for 2 rounds is a joke. If I had a sam instead of the aim-casting mage, that guy could shoot instead for that ap, which is definitely more of a combat improvement. Level 3 aim is allright because it lasts long enough to be cast before opening a door or something and still be "on". Still, it mainly helps the "not-so-good" characters, because a good player street sam hits almost everything on 99% (read: 89% in full auto) anyways.

Haste is another example of "gets solid near the end of the game". Level 1 haste is a bad joke. It reads "trade 2 ap for 1 ap now and one next turn", which is a net loss. Level 3 haste works under the same circumstances that aim does and allows you to concentrate power on your main char or whoever your big hitter is. But still, why not use another big hitter instead?


On an even wider tangent:

Compared to just having another street sam with an assault rifle, everything sucks, sadly. Rifles are too good, almost all spells and the other weapon types are too weak. Riggers are okay I guess, but tedious to manage and move forward until you get a third ap. The best thing about riggers would be their shared requirements with decking, which frees up that duty from another character.

[billy]

i disagree about mage's , while mages are not as interesting as in other RPGs ( or the shadowrun PnP) they are effective , being able to heal , remove armour , CC (which is very handy ) and do AOE .

I also find there damage to be ok and there hit chance to be amongst the best in the game. Flamethrower spell is great , very powerful.

I agree there buffs aren't great but i think the game as a whole follows that rule , look at cyberware.

[Stormfox]

Originally posted by billy:

i disagree about mage's , while mages are not as interesting as in other RPGs ( or the shadowrun PnP) they are effective , being able to heal , remove armour , CC (which is very handy ) and do AOE .

Heal wound is one of the few spells I recognize as useful. On the other hand, it is easily gainable on your main char by investing a whole of 3 karma and a few hundred nuyen.

Remove armor is usually just bad. Removing 2-3 armor from a target is not as useful as simply killing it in spite of its armor. In extreme cases of armor vs. weapon power, that shifts, but those are pretty much nonexistant in the campaign - especially since most combat characters have some form of armor shred, too, to rely on if you need, and those usually do damage in addition to the shred. Armor shred in itself (no matter the source) is an underused mechanic so far. If the game had more encounters like the one in the intro mission, with one very high hp and high armor target, they might become more actionefficient than simply shooting first.

Due to the lethalty of good weapon based builds (or drones), paired with the huge amounts of opponents usually faced, cc is not very strong. Yes, cc helps bad combat characters to at least equalize one opponent until the good combat characters find time to deal with them, but as I said before, my assault rifle sam can just kill one target per turn (or even more), which leads to one of my favourite sayings: "Death is the best form of CC!"

Aoe attacks are generally not AP-efficient either, unless the enemy clumps up ridiculously, which they rarely do. Of course they are good the few times you actually hit 3 or more guys with it, but otherwise they do not even compare favourably to single target spells. High level versions of ball lightning are pretty solid, but cost a full 3 ap, which makes targetting difficult during turn 1, where you can actuall find 2-3 targets close to each other. Still, it is one of those rare combos of okay damage with okay cc, that works. Fireball, on the other hand, is too weak/slow. Even if it hits two targets, it rarely kills them by itself even with the burn damage. Full auto kills one in turn one and one in turn two.

I also find there damage to be ok and there hit chance to be amongst the best in the game. Flamethrower spell is great , very powerful.

Flamethrower is allright for a 1 ap attack I guess. A simple SMG burst often does around the same damage, though and is available more often.

Of the offensive spells, high level flamethrower is definitely one of the best, but that does not make it objectively good. If all offensives had that power niveau and the buffs and debuffs where more useful, mages would work - not quite as good as damage dealers as a sam, but with added utility.

I agree there buffs aren't great but i think the game as a whole follows that rule , look at cyberware.

Cyberware is always on, passive, for the most part.


I am not bashing magic because I don't like it or something. In fact, I would LOVE to use more magic. I just cannot justify it, since its almost always worse than simply playing 3 sams and one decker/rigger combo.