A Simulator or a Game

[peter.crowe1]

First, let me explain my credentials. I am a recently retired Ships Master who has in my career of over 40 years served on various different types of vessel ranging from Bulk carriers and Tankers in my early years to offshore Dive support and pipe / cable laying vessels more recently, finally completing my seagoing career as an Offshore Marine Consultant working within the Oil and Gas sector. I am an avid fan of simulators and have in the past enjoyed using Ship Simulator Extremes but was always disappointed with several important aspects of it and was hoping that a new simulator like yours would address these issues. so far I have not really seen this however I am hoping to take this opportunity to see a new simulator develop in a way that I had hoped Extremes would have done. I have noted within correspondence that certain users of this simulator are or may become future seafarers and so I am hoping that if these issues are addressed by yourselves this product could be of significant value to them and could therefore put it streets ahead of anything presently on the market. Anyway here are some recommendations and wishes to hopefully help you create a more professional Ship simulator and raise it above the level of just being a 'game'.

First of all please check your nautical phrasing correctly. It may be a loss in translation as I do not know in which country this product is being created but such terminology is international and should be adopted from the start. e.g. Ships have engines but they also have thrusters. Any propeller that can be directed 360 degrees is considered an 'azimuth thruster'. Any sideways form of propulsion is considered a 'Thruster' be it bow or stern dependent on its placement within the hull. Please don't call them all engines. Also please note, the azimuth thrusters (Azi-pods?) on the Cruise Liner are not correctly simulated. These should rotate 360 degrees and the controls should indicate the direction of thrust, not the direction of the vessels heading change. also please supply bridge wing engine and steering controls so that complete internal operations of the vessel can be simulated. Most modern vessels now have these

Further research on each type of vessel is required i.e. Large Bulk carriers nomally only have one main engine and only occasionally would they be fitted with a bow thruster. Your present model with two engines is not truly representative of this type of vessel. Bulk Carriers spend most of their lives at sea and are sailed at economical speeds. The design would therefore dictates one engine as being sufficient and the investments of additional thrusters unlikely, with the employment of tugs during berthing or un-berthing (please note the correct terminology for 'parking a vessel') the preferred method. This should be adopted within the simulator to give the user the difficult experience of manoeuvring such a vessel within the constraints of a port

At present the RPM indicated on most of your simulated models does not reflect actual practice. Again more research is required. Ships use large engines which could never attain the RPM you suggest. Most are low or medium speed diesel engines with a max RPM anywhere from 150 to 750 not 11000! Even A high powered launch would probably only achieve about 4000 RPM. Many medium size vessels especially ferries now tend to use variable pitch propeller controls and as such the output of these would be measured as a percentage

One major aspect of ship manoeuvring that Ship Simulator Extreme did not touch on was the effect of current and/or tide on a vessel. This together with wind is one that most influential variable dynamic forces on a vessel and effects many navigational decisions during a passage and also strongly influence the berthing operations of a vessel in a river or open port where it would likely be effected by tidal waters. It is important that this be modelled correctly for the user to benefit from this added dynamic. It would be a great disappointment were this not achieved

At this time the mass and consequently the inertia of the modelled vessels do not appear to be being simulated correctly. For instance, The ferry's speed increases far to quickly in relation to the propulsion applied and its momentum is lost far to quickly once underway and when the propulsion is stopped. This would not be the case in reality. A healthy use of astern propulsion when going ahead is normally required to stop a vessel quickly. Again more research is required. Correct starting and stopping distances, maximum speeds and turning circles are acquired during the initial sea trials of all ships so this data should be available for you to simulate correctly. On the same subject, during towing operations it appears that the mass of the towed vessel is not considered. As soon as the tug is connected to the Bulk Carrier you can apply full ahead propulsion. Within seconds the tug is doing 12 knots and the Bulk carrier is duly following. The same when stopping the tug, the towed Bulk carrier immediately stops. This is not correct at all.

The wake of the vessels (the disturbed water as the vessel passes moves through this medium) is not being visually simulated correctly. The disturbed water would be visible from the bow all the way along the waterline of the ships side (due to interaction of the ships hull with the water) and well astern. I note you have tried to create a 3d simulation of the propeller wash which is a great idea, however this would only be visible when the engines are going ahead and not astern. At present the wash is visible when the engines are going both ahead and astern and looks somewhat strange when astern power is being applied and yet wash from the propeller can still be seen emanating from the stern of the vessel. It needs correcting.

It would be good to see the dummy radar screens replaced with correctly simulated screens. Radar is a major navigational aid both in good and poor visibility and its implementation within the simulation is vital. So too is the use of a simulated ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display and Information System). Both ECDIS and Radar are now compulsory on most seagoing vessels.

The simulation of water depth together with the use of a suitable Echo Sounder (depth gauge) should also be considered. This is a major factor which requires careful monitoring when considering the safe navigation of a vessel in a seaway or port / harbour

Please research the placement of navigation side lights on each of your vessels (Note the bulk carrier). On large vessels (Ships) these are most certainly not placed up a mast but on either side of the vessel so that when viewed from anywhere but right ahead they are only individually visible from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on their respective sides. You will find more information regarding this within a copy of the International rules for preventing collisions at sea.

I know that to develop the software for all of the above is no easy task I believe that it is required so that you can truly call it a ship simulator rather than just a game.

Good luck!!

[Unukornulo]

That is quite right, and one can only fully agree.
To simulate correctly ship interactions, the ship masses and mass moments of inertia or radii of gyration should be uniformly scaled over all ships, so that accelerations can be realistically displayed.
Body drag, water resistance, must have distinct values for sway, surge and heave movements, function of approx. the square of the velocity relative to the water surrounding the ship.
Angular drag, yaw, pitch and roll movements should be a function not only of their rotational speed, but also of the ship's speed. Of course, the forces must be adequately scaled vs masses.
To swing the ship, a transversal rudder force -or a lateral thruster or propeller force- is created by the rudder lift and applied to the stern.
With way ahead, the hydrodynamic resistance to the initiated turn is applied at a point forward of the centre of mass, not unlike air resistance for airfoils and for the same reasons, resulting in a drift angle.
Scaling the forces can only be done by specific software, but also through experiments or observations of ship movements, knowing the propulsive forces. The latter can be roughly estimated/guessed, knowing the engine type and power and the speed of the ship, ♥♥♥ grano salis due to power losses, thrust coefficient and other variables.

If the physics engine doesn't have these somewhat awkward but simplified laws, they should be inserted by hand, certainly to get realistic ship movements. It is probably not yet your highest priority, and these functions can certainly be inserted later. Nevertheless, the uniform scaling of the main ship dimensions is of utmost importance, as early as possible in the development.
Many references and documents can be easily found online about ship handling and hydromechanics, even ppt and youtube videos, at every level of expertise.
Good luck

[JocK]

Ahoy, peter.crowe1

From this bloke of Downunder.

I may be a landlover, so to speak, but I like the "Cut of your jib", mate.

Salt of the Sea, you are and many thank's for you good thoughts. Among others, too.

Alot of what you say, rings bell's for Age of Sail type Sims/ games too. (minues the engine, etc.) And there are some out there or coming soon, for those types of vessels, thought mainly, as per warfare.
As you say, it's pity, SSE, didn't improve itself, too. Via yours and others advice.
It would have been good, if both ESS and SSE, could have been in good health competition, with eachother. Sadly, SSE is sort of sinking. It would be good, to see more decent Ship Sims, as time goes on. I do like other types of sims and games. But, I also enjoy this type of thing, too.

Well, I am sure ESS, will get there eventually, rushing it won't help, either.
(give it time and it may "surprise", you. Good name for a ship, Ha!)

Fair Winds and Follow Seas. (and don't swallow the anchor, completely, just yet. Ha!)

[[CZCR].Wolf]

Originally posted by Walkyrje:

Something to have in the basement. :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDfSI-4Uws0

Buddy, mind inviting me to your basement? I would love to bring on some cases of beer... thats awesome!