1-2 Hit Kills

[Beard]

In the current form, having larger nids that can easily 1-hit us is a poor mechanical design.

-Without a form of dodge-slide like in Vermintide, or any way of skill-based avoidance, there's 0 justification for any melee mob in this game to have that kind of damage.

-Backpedalling is the only way to deal with them. And it's not a smooth experience. Between the larger nids having poor visuals for their attack animation and the absurdness of watching a team of Terminators desperately backing away all at once, it's frustrating and too comical looking.

-Blocking does nothing (?). I play Assault most of the time. There's very poor fluidity between raising my shield -> single melee attack. Add in the poor visual cues for nid melee attacks, and there's pretty much nothing I can do but distract the larger nids until I die for my team. Attacks go through my block, will nearly always 1 shot me in the head, or two shot me in the torso. And because of the animation delay of rasing the shield in general, let alone trying to get in a hit between blocking, there's little point to actually blocking much in this game against melee attacks. You're better off just spamming your attacks and hope your medic just spam heals you.

-Is there a ping/call target button? I didn't ever find one if there is. It's so sad playing a class without a ranged weapon, and watching my teammates get pummeled by missile turrets while they're frantically trying to find them but I have a clear LOS to them.

This game has potential, and these are my frustrations in it's current state. Thanks.

[Hal8000]

This isn't Vermantide. Stop comparing it. Same with Left for Dead, Call of Duty, i.e. any other game you want to compare it to.

Space Hulk is Space Hulk. It has it's own rules and universe. 1-2 hit kills is normal. Coordinate with your brothers and form firing lanes.
This is a teamwork game.

Nids can and will swarm you if you don't take measures to protect yourself. That's the nature of nids.

[Negim]

Now NoMercy with Friendlyfire on was challenge took about 5 hours with few crashes slowing us down

[Straker]

Yeah it's a pretty cheap way to die for sure. I can understand getting overwhelmed by the swarm, but the game takes away the fun of wearing Terminator armor when you're constantly fearing the one shot of a lone breakaway.

Think about it, was the small Deathwing Terminator squad sent in to merely survive the space hulk, or was it sent in with the expectation of completing the mission and annihilating all resistance? I don't want to simply sprint through gunning everything down w/o thought, but the current state of increasing difficulty by scaling up monster damage I think will get old rapidly. One different way to handle risk without cheap one shots would be increasing numbers of Genestealers, the frequency in which they spawn, and the amount of locations they spawn from. As of now, I don't see anyone blocking doors for any noticeable tactical advantage except blocking the engine room door after turning off the engine and immediately running out.

The lore and rules of the 40K universe support arguments for both tanky Terminators and squishy Terminators. We should strive to find the right ways to keep the gameplay of SH:DW fun and engaging and remember that it is a cooperative team vs AI video game.

[Beard]

Ahhh okay, so really based on everyone's responses, I must have been really bugged up with blocks during my run. Thanks. Disclaimer though, I have no issues with swarms. They operated just as I imagined and I could handle them easily enough.

[Commisar Jon Fuklaw]

Originally posted by Beard:

Of course I want a Broodlord to not 1-hit me as a melee-oriented class, especially apparently always in the head. This isn't a tabletop translation. It's an FPS -inspired- by the TT game and universe. There's already two versions of a direct translation of the TT game if I wanted a game on "how Space Hulk works".

I'm not calling the game bad. I'm hopeful that it's tuned up for release. For all I know, my blocking was indeed bugged. It sure seemed like it. Once that's fixed, and animations are fine tuned and more responsive, most of my irritations will probably be gone. Cataclysm in Vermintide (especially with grims) is basically the same concept: anything, even trash rats, can easily kill you with just a couple of hits. But with smooth blocking, animations and avoidance mechanics, it's both thrilling and challenging.

So again, I'm hopeful that once the game is more polished for release, most of my issues will be solved.

Afterthought: Does anyone else have insanely higher number of kills with the Thunderhammer than anyone else in every game? Like, literally by hundreds. Is that absurd?

TH does absurd damage in an insane splash radius (1.5r of plasma cannon blast). Played a game with FF on and me and the rest of the team had to SHUN the assault because TH kept one shotting us. Especially me because I was apothecary. Only way I could reliably not die (70% success rate) is by using mass heal as far from him as possible.

[Oku]

Parry well and have your Librarian stagger the thing, they're easy as ♥♥♥♥ to fight.

[badminton]

I noticed a lot of people trying to play the beta like they were playing Doom, running in and trying to strafe all over the place. It looked stupid, it almost never worked and it usually ended up in a squad wipe because everyone either gets in the way of each other or everyone gets split up and picked off. At least on the harder difficulties.

Also everyone tried to shoot the nearest genetealers instead of defending a specific direction each which usually ended up in us getting flanked and wiped.

There's plenty you can do to avoid being one-shot (and there is the tactical marine to instant res just in case), it just requires a bit of thinking and planning. Choose a location, choose a direction and make sure they don't get close enough. If you want to run around mowing stuff down with your mates then play Serious Sam (awesome fun) or Farcry 4 or something. There are loads of games for you already.

Space Hulk has always been a game about strategy and awareness. Streumon/Cyanide have done a great job translating that into real time. I'd go so far as to say it's literally an improved version of the original Space Hulk computer game (which was awesome). You need a good squad mix and you need to cover each others' arses to get through it.

If you're playing assault then you're primarily defense IMO. If you charge a brood lord then you probably deserve to die within a few seconds. Keep regular 'stealers off your heavy weapon and let him take it down.

[Kotzi]

Just to clarify again because its very important. There is a seperate parry key. Dont charge your shieldhand to parry.

Edit: Assault is a tank. Be the first, raise your shield, let your buddies kill the enemy while you get minimum damage. If the enemy gets close your powerfull closecombat weapon tears through them with ease. Worked with my buddys.

[Beard]

Originally posted by Kotzi:

Just to clarify again because its very important. There is a seperate parry key. Dont charge your shieldhand to parry.

Edit: Assault is a tank. Be the first, raise your shield, let your buddies kill the enemy while you get minimum damage. If the enemy gets close your powerfull closecombat weapon tears through them with ease. Worked with my buddys.

Had no idea, thanks for the heads up.

[PinkiesBrain]

Just on the guys who are - 1 hit genestealer is normal in TT-

I played the TT for a long time also on competition and yes it is possible to kill a terminator in a single attack phase with a genestealer (on a 6 on a d6 hit roll) they are the melee hardcounter of tyranid against terminator marines (one of the most sturdy units in 40k) .

BUT this is due to the fact the TT breaks down the fight to phases with "single" attacks which represent a firefight or melee fight sequence (of undefined lenght).
This means that in other words there is a 16.6% chance that a GS might kill a terminator in a specific period of time (per TT attack)
Still a single attack in TT is a representation of a couple of attacks in "reality". leading to the conclusion that a series of hits by a GS should kill you in about 16.6 % of the cases. (if Terminators still have 1 HP- dint play for a while)
Also a special character in the TT which the player probably represents would very likely have a 50% save throw cause of items like relics and 2HP.
Reducing the chance to roughly 2.7% per two attacks in one phase per GS
(1/36 because of two 6 on d6 needed)
Minus the save rolls - (two times 50%)

With other words in the TT it is highly unlikely that a SINGLE genestealer kills a Terminator Champion with full life in a single phase (means about a dozen strikes- though the amount is not defined).

AAAND last but not least- this is fps - not TT - the FEEL and Lore should be represented not the TT game.
And the FEEL is in lore and TT that Genestealers in larger amounts are dangerous but killable - got to kill them from afar preferably - all other smaller bugs cannot really harm a terminator.(especially not in the lore- in the TT its still possible with luck on the dice)

(for the nerds- yes i know that GS hits without a 6 roll can still make a wound and penetrate armor- but- well you all know how likely it is...)
cheers

[Flamescion]

Basically, OP is bad af.

[Captain Worthy]

Originally posted by PinkiesBrain:

Just on the guys who are - 1 hit genestealer is normal in TT-

I played the TT for a long time also on competition and yes it is possible to kill a terminator in a single attack phase with a genestealer (on a 6 on a d6 hit roll) they are the melee hardcounter of tyranid against terminator marines (one of the most sturdy units in 40k) .

BUT this is due to the fact the TT breaks down the fight to phases with "single" attacks which represent a firefight or melee fight sequence (of undefined lenght).
This means that in other words there is a 16.6% chance that a GS might kill a terminator in a specific period of time (per TT attack)
Still a single attack in TT is a representation of a couple of attacks in "reality". leading to the conclusion that a series of hits by a GS should kill you in about 16.6 % of the cases. (if Terminators still have 1 HP- dint play for a while)
Also a special character in the TT which the player probably represents would very likely have a 50% save throw cause of items like relics and 2HP.
Reducing the chance to roughly 2.7% per two attacks in one phase per GS
(1/36 because of two 6 on d6 needed)
Minus the save rolls - (two times 50%)

With other words in the TT it is highly unlikely that a SINGLE genestealer kills a Terminator Champion with full life in a single phase (means about a dozen strikes- though the amount is not defined).

AAAND last but not least- this is fps - not TT - the FEEL and Lore should be represented not the TT game.
And the FEEL is in lore and TT that Genestealers in larger amounts are dangerous but killable - got to kill them from afar preferably - all other smaller bugs cannot really harm a terminator.(especially not in the lore- in the TT its still possible with luck on the dice)

(for the nerds- yes i know that GS hits without a 6 roll can still make a wound and penetrate armor- but- well you all know how likely it is...)
cheers

Your context is wrong though. Space Hulk comes from an era where Genestealers had power weapon claws and Terminators did not have their Invulnerable save yet. So close combat with a Genestealer meant swift death to the Terminator most of the time, both in 40k and in the Space Hulk boardgame. The Space Hulk PC games are based on this heritage and not on the current editions of 40k TT.

That said, the devs have done a lot of work to achieve a better balance and more entertaining gameplay experience, they give us the option of easier difficulties where our Terminators can survive more easily and only on the higher difficulties the game starts to resemble its origins. This is absolutely great.

[Straker]

Genestealers have never been good against Terminators in the game of WH40K proper. They have never had "power weapon" claws. Even in crazy 2nd edition their armament is simply "claws" and they didn't do anything more special to armor than a typical 'gaunt. The way Tyranids deal with Terminators is by tarpitting them in close combat with disposable swarm units like 20+ termigaunts. While the expensive ~280 point Terminator squad is locked down by 100 points of 'nids unable to shoot for all those turns, the actual strong Tyranid units attempt to fight a battle more in their favor, engaging and attempting to take out the normal power armor marines.

TT Space Hulk's representation of Terminator vs Genestealer interactions have not ever meshed well at all with the direction that 25 years of TT 40K have taken. The reason is obvious, you'd have to have the brain of a 12-year old boy to be able to accept that an organically grown claw swung by a spindly Genestealer could instantly punch through what looks to be about 6 inches of armor plate. Are there weak points in Terminator armor? Sure! The 'stealers could eventually sink a claw into the joints, eyes, etc. but not until they overpower the Terminator through sheer strength of numbers. That's why they have the rending on 6's rule in TT, still it takes an average of 3-4 Genestealers to pin down that Terminator and really be sure of a kill and even then it may take 2 or 3 turns of combat. Which makes sense if you think about it. 1 lucky hit from a rogue Genestealer though? Please...

tl/dr: Higher volume of close combat attacks =/= claws that can magically instantly pierce Terminator armor.

[Free Luigi M.]

Originally posted by Straker:

Genestealers have never been good against Terminators in the game of WH40K proper. They have never had "power weapon" claws. Even in crazy 2nd edition their armament is simply "claws" and they didn't do anything more special to armor than a typical 'gaunt. The way Tyranids deal with Terminators is by tarpitting them in close combat with disposable swarm units like 20+ termigaunts. While the expensive ~280 point Terminator squad is locked down by 100 points of 'nids unable to shoot for all those turns, the actual strong Tyranid units attempt to fight a battle more in their favor, engaging and attempting to take out the normal power armor marines.

TT Space Hulk's representation of Terminator vs Genestealer interactions have not ever meshed well at all with the direction that 25 years of TT 40K have taken. The reason is obvious, you'd have to have the brain of a 12-year old boy to be able to accept that an organically grown claw swung by a spindly Genestealer could instantly punch through what looks to be about 6 inches of armor plate. Are there weak points in Terminator armor? Sure! The 'stealers could eventually sink a claw into the joints, eyes, etc. but not until they overpower the Terminator through sheer strength of numbers. That's why they have the rending on 6's rule in TT, still it takes an average of 3-4 Genestealers to pin down that Terminator and really be sure of a kill and even then it may take 2 or 3 turns of combat. Which makes sense if you think about it. 1 lucky hit from a rogue Genestealer though? Please...

tl/dr: Higher volume of close combat attacks =/= claws that can magically instantly pierce Terminator armor.

Genestealers claws are actually far more powerful than you make them out to be. They are known to penetrate power armor and even terminator armor not so seldom.

Also two main reasons I like the way it is now:

Space Hulk always had extremely lethal tyranids. Refer to the spin-off tabletop game or the computer games.
Dangerous genestealers make for a much more intense and focused game experience. Watch your corners, stay alert, work as a team. If they get close it won't be pretty.

So to all people trying to make this game easier: please, stop. Space Hulk has to be unforgiving.

[Straker]

Sorry man, I'll never be convinced a basic, un-powered claw attack from a humanoid sized creature can cut down a Terminator in a quick, sweeping charge like it is on the harder difficulties and board game. That's 880 pounds of armor, a solid bone rib cage, and redundant vital organs that creature has to deal with to nullify the marine. I get that the 40K universe is all about suspending belief to a point an all that, but it has to be at least slightly believable to get into it.

The game can still be extremely challenging w/o 1 hit kills being handed out willy-nilly. I already addressed that in the thread. One-shots are not the only way to make things intense, they are simply lazy game design. Besides, I want the drama of struggling with the Genestealers in a melee combat last stand, taking a few with me, before I go down. Of course they are going to have to flesh out the melee system a bit more to make that fun.