"we need a medic"

[Hyndis]

The apothecary is not the the first choice pick. It seems the apothecary is only selected when there isn't one. Its a class selected only out of necessity.

I think the biggest reason for this is the apothecary's limited selection of weapons. The apothecary is limited to being unable to use any melee weapons (unless you want a very large penalty on your healing skills) and the apothecary is limited to only light weapons.

There just isn't a lot of variety to this, unfortunately. No assault cannons, no plasma guns, no flamethrowers, no power swords. The requirement to have an apothecary means that someone is always stuck with the short straw. Whoever is the apothecary is just sort of there. They're like the tourist in the group. When everyone is packing flamethrowers and assault cannons and you've got a stormbolter (which has no armor piercing) it feels like you're not very effective.

How to resolve this short straw effect?

Should the apothecary be made more attractive to play as a class? More loadout options for the apothecary, perhaps allowing a full diversity of equipment in exchange for not having any combat skills? This includes flexibility with melee weapons. The apothecary's melee attack is exceptionally weak.

Or perhaps add in a slow passive regeneration for everyone so that while the apothecary is still very helpful for rapid heals, the apothecary wouldn't actually be a required class. A slow passive regimentation would be too slow to matter if you're taking damage but could make the apothecary less of a required class so that someone isn't stuck with the short straw every time. As far as repairing damaged limbs/legs, perhaps that could also be a passive repair but only if the radar is clear of all genestealers, which means the First Company is out of combat.

[GESTALT]

Apo is fine, if you give him all weapon options everyone uses him (since class restrictions were unlocked) to be able to self heal. People don't want to play Apo (in pug games) because they get bothered all the time by strangers with "I need an Apothecary" and have to justify themselves for being on cooldown to stop the spamming. It's annoying as hell, if you ever played Apo you know this. His melee capabiltiy is restricted because he needs his Narthecium to heal, and it's not "exceptionally weak".

Finally "selected out of necessity". You could argue that all classes are slected by that. There are defensive and offensive necessities. Psyker is a powerful asset when geared correctly, Tactical and Chaplain can revive, Chaplain can make the entire squad invincible, Heavy has the firepower, Apo the heals (and the Hellfire pattern Stormbolter, exclusively), the Assault all the melee.

BUT - I do also hope they open up all (and this is important) appropriate wargear for all classes when the progression system is released. But to get the right to equip anything beyond your usual selection you need a certain and high veteran rank to do so. But for the Apothecary wouldn't be much changed since he needs the Narthecium to heal, that means no heavy weapons (need Powerfist) and no other melee weapons as well. He just could use other weapon choices when leveled up and he wants to play in another role. I take it they make progression tied to classes so you have essentially an Apo character of high level for example, while your other classes are not that much leveled. This way this idea would make sense.

Regarding the self-heal/regeneration - I hope the devs do something along those lines with the progression system they have planned, like a rune/perk for getting a tiny bit of health(armor) back for making a kill. Could also be tied to veteran ranks or whatever. Especially solo playing could be thing with something like this, as of now you can only hope to end a long mission while playing as Apothecary.

They plan to add runes/perks/traits, see here:
http://spacehulk-deathwing.com/news#2017-06-14-return-to-olethros%27-update

[Hyndis]

Some sort of passive healing or regeneration would go a very long ways towards making the medic less mandatory.

And yes, the apothecary is far less combat capable than the other classes. The flame thrower or assault cannon can mow down entire hallways all by itself. The plasma guns either do slow firing massive damage against big targets (including a stagger) or rapid fire against many smaller targets.

The apothecary has a stormbolter, a shotgun, or the hellfire gun. Thats it. The melee attack without the power fist is the weakest in game. Look at the stats. It has next to no AoE, no armor penetration, and low damage.

As it stands now, someone always has to take one for the team and play this much weaker class. While the apothecary's healing skills are outstanding, its effectively the player acting as a healbot. Waiting to use the psi gates to heal after completing each objective isn't always an option, especially with the special assignment maps where objectives are randomized.

I often host open servers, and the vast majority of people who join immediately go with the chaplain or tac marine. These classes are great glasses. They have a lot of different kinds of firepower to play with.

The librarian and the apothecary seem to be the least played classes. Librarian seem to be the least played because it is not required, and other classes do the same thing but better. Apothecary seems to be played only because it is required. The weapon selection is very limited, and after playing the apothecary so often I just want some other gear to play with. Playing the same loadout over and over again is a bit monotonous.

[Mr B.]

I agree. I was *always* being medic, and got bored of the limited load out.

The few times I didn't, in the lobby it was Mr B can you go medic please?

*player rant- so many annoying people demeanding heals before cool down. Have they ever played as apothecary?? *

At least spear of caliban , because that's not super effective due to jams and overheating.

[GESTALT]

Originally posted by Mr B.:

At least spear of caliban , because that's not super effective due to jams and overheating.

Spear of Caliban limits offhand weapon to Power Fist (or preorder Mace) - and then you don't have a Narthecium, which means your healing skills are disabled. Same for Heavy Flamer or any other heavy weapon. Librarian has all weapon options available actually which allow him to still heal, and then even a bit more.

[Mr B.]

Originally posted by Iaoth:

Originally posted by Mr B.:

At least spear of caliban , because that's not super effective due to jams and overheating.

Spear of Caliban limits offhand weapon to Power Fist (or preorder Mace) - and then you don't have a Narthecium, which means your healing skills are disabled.

Yeah, I don't agree with that. It's a fun weapon to use, but not at all much more effective than a storm bolter so shouldn't be putting that restriction on melee.

[GESTALT]

Originally posted by Mr B.:

Originally posted by Iaoth:

Spear of Caliban limits offhand weapon to Power Fist (or preorder Mace) - and then you don't have a Narthecium, which means your healing skills are disabled.

Yeah, I don't agree with that. It's a fun weapon to use, but not at all much more effective than a storm bolter so shouldn't be putting that restriction on melee.

It's a restriction for all classes though, maybe they add the Chainfist as alternative for heavy weapons, but this is tied to the tabletop/lore afaik and they have to get unlikely allowances to make any changes from Games Workshop.

And then again why play Apothecary when you sacrifice you healing skill? As I outlined above only reason would be you leveled your Apo character and unlocked custom loadout (as a veteran) and want to play your leveled Apothecary character.

Also recently I ended up in games with two Apos. The heavy class is and was the most played (because of the Assault Cannon/Vengeance) and Chaplains and Tacticals are often chosen because they can insta revive. They both sacrifice loadout too. The Librarian is extremely useful when his psionic skills are being used (with his cooldown buff Sword or even better Axe).

Imo the Chaplain should have gotten the lower Assault Cannon instead of the Spear of Caliban to make him more distinct from the Tactical. Also, the Librarian should get the ability to unlock other Psionice abilities via progression. Both Chaplain and Librarian should also get the Mace of Absolution/Storm Shield combo (or Thunder Hammer, one of this) since they are "special" leader characters.

[Fosil]

the hellfire is a top tier gun up with flamethrower/vengeance cannon. together with the self-heal abilities of the apo he is one of the strongest classes.

the movement lockdown of the hellfire makes attacks from several directions survivable and if the attack is coming only from one direction, the apo is untouchable as long as you can evade plasma balls (reload/weapon malfunctions take roughly the same time the nids need to start moving again).

my problem with the class is that hellfire gameplay is a bit boring (2 hits for normal white stealers/stalkers, ~12 for warriors). you keep firing at stationary warriors, always moving to evade plasma balls. the narthecium is not a powerfist, so you don't have the option to stun and get close to finish with a melee attack. claw apo was very fun to play with but with 3min longs cds it's only a part time healer now. the redemption is fine until against white stealers and the mk2 is only a gimmick gun.

[Oddyseyy]

I agree with the part about how excessive not choosing the narthecium and getting a slower cool down is. Honestly, if the hellfire is the only gun worthwhile, you're basically relegated to healing and hellfire only. If they removed the cool down restriction or made the narthecium a more prominent melee tool, I think people would get the variety they want and be more forthcoming about choosing the class.

Basically to do well in any lobby you need:
- Apo for heals (need it or you die)
- Heavy to mow down corridors and turrets
- Chaplain/Tactical (player res / group res with chaplain and group timed invincibility)
- ??? - literally any other class can be taken as an optional bonus, but two Apo's would be pointless dps wise.

[Rotiart]

Uhh, the Hellfire bolter is exclusive to Apoc, and it's one of the best weapons in the game (Aside from Assault and Heavy Specialty weapons)

[Fosil]

the best team (without the broken thunder hammer) is 2x apo with hellfire and 2x flamethrowers. the flamethrowers helps against warriors / scythe / broodlords / stalkers and has an unreliable movement lock too and the hellfire movement locks everything. the healing rate of two apos is insane and the flamethrowers can rez as a backup againt unlucky plasma balls kills etc.

the heavies lack utility skills and they don't have the endurance to keep dishing out dps against big swarm attacks. furthermore the visibility issues when using hellfire or flamethrowers disadvantages aimed shots with the VC and without aimed shots the flamethrower outperforms the VC easily.

[Hyndis]

Devastators don't have any utility skills but when it comes to laying down firepower nothing beats a devastator. The regular assault cannon is a truly phenomenal weapon. Laying a mine on the flood is exceptionally underwhelming, but the other two devastator abilities (rapid fire and focus fire) are both outstanding. Either you can instantly mow down an entire hallway, or kill a broodlord in a matter of seconds, or you can use the assault cannon as an automatic sniper rifle.

In terms of sheer damage output nothing beats the devastator. There is nothing humble about the assault cannon. Even though its the starting weapon its also the best weapon.

I'm not a fan of the armor piercing cannon. Its fire rate is too slow and its rounds too inaccurate. Despite the regular assault cannon not being as good at armor piercing as the more specialized cannon, its sheer volume of fire more than makes up for its lower armor piercing potential. It rips apart xenos like a hot knife through butter. Even broodlords have a lifespan measured in seconds at most.

[SNAAAKE]

Originally posted by Rotiart:

Uhh, the Hellfire bolter is exclusive to Apoc, and it's one of the best weapons in the game (Aside from Assault and Heavy Specialty weapons)

And like all Apoc weapons they are boring and not interesting to use.

[Rotiart]

Originally posted by SNAAAKE:

Originally posted by Rotiart:

Uhh, the Hellfire bolter is exclusive to Apoc, and it's one of the best weapons in the game (Aside from Assault and Heavy Specialty weapons)

And like all Apoc weapons they are boring and not interesting to use.

Well they're ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ apocetharies, not heavy weapons. What are you expecting? They have some of the best abilities in the game, they are the only class that sustain themselves indefinitely. The Tactical Marine does not have access to the Hellfire, and has 10x worse abilities.

[Hyndis]

The issue isn't that the apothecary is bad, the issue is that the apothecary is boring due to a very limited equipment loadout. Due to the requirement for healing someone has to get stuck with a boring, rather limited class every time. Someone has to bite the bullet.

There's a reason why tacs and chaplains are so common, often to the point of having duplicates, but duplicate apothecaries nearly never happens.

[Hyndis]

I think the issue is best summed up as:

The apothecary is a class people have to play, not a class people want to play.

Perhaps a slow passive regeneration for everyone may be the best route. That way the apothecary's heals are still powerful and still the only way to recover if you're taking a lot of damage in a short amount of time, but even without an apothecary a slow, steady regen would allow players to play smart, play careful, and play without an apothecary. The players just need to avoid getting hit, because any passive healing would take a long time, too long to make any difference in combat if a genestealer is trying to eat your face.