So, what the Bleep is this "HRAA" I hear the Consoles Have?!

[MacAttack]

What is it? And what purpose does it serve? I couldn't find anything specific on it, just an article from Digital Foundry rambling on about how HRAA does a better job than conventional aliaising on PC.

They didn't provide any high-res, side-by-side comparison images either, so you can't see how much "better" it is over conventional aliasing like MSAA or TXAA. I think DF is biased anyway, they seem to favor the consoles.

They seem to forget we have MFAA, which appears to do the same thing. Anyway, does anyone here know what it does? I am assuming HRAA stands for High-Resolution Anti-Aliasing? Or no?

I also heard the GPU in the PS4 is the equivalent of about 150 dollars (if I remember correctly). All I can say is, ain't no way a 150 dollar GPU is going to crank out better aliasing quality than a PC with a proper graphics card in it. I had an old GTX 750Ti, which is still sold for about 150 dollars depending on make and model, and I couldn't play games with aliasing if I wanted to keep 50-60 frames on medium/high settings. I could get away with light aliasing, but anything higher, and performace started to drop.

Really, the point of this post is just to see if anyone has any knowledge on what HRAA is. DF says it's on the consoles only, but who cares about that when I know that a PC clearly has superior aliasing anyway? If I end up being wrong, I stand corrected. But as of right now, I'm not convinced.

If it tickles your fancy, you can read the article here:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-far-cry-4-face-off

[Sparhawk122]

They're on crack or something....

Here's a list of things we have >

G-Sync,
NVidia Fur works,
PhysX,
ShadowPlay,
and many more.... Plus all the extra AA options we have.
Not to mention SSD.

[StinkDiver]

Dont worry about it. console makers will say anything to make their system seem superior or equal to PC. its all lies for the gullable masses.

[coldneutron]

"Based on the public information released to date by Ubisoft, it's probably the case that HRAA requires extremely low-level access to the GPU - DirectX 11 alone probably isn't up to the task." - from the article

Did you even read the whole article? How is it "CLEARLY biased?" It just says HRAA produces better results than other forms of AA and it can't be implemented on PC most likely due to the limits of DX11. The rest of the article goes on about how everything else is better on PC, but that the PC version has some performance issues, which it does.

[Hermann Knallfeiss]

SMAA is where its at.

[MacAttack]

ColdNeutron původně napsal:

"Based on the public information released to date by Ubisoft, it's probably the case that HRAA requires extremely low-level access to the GPU - DirectX 11 alone probably isn't up to the task." - from the article

Did you even read the whole article? How is it "CLEARLY biased?" It just says HRAA produces better results than other forms of AA and it can't be implemented on PC most likely due to the limits of DX11. The rest of the article goes on about how everything else is better on PC, but that the PC version has some performance issues, which it does.

I read everything they said about the consoles, I just skimmed the bits about PC, because I know what a PC is capable of. And yes, I recall that bit about HRAA using low-level access. Is it saying that it takes less power to run a form of aliasing? Or something else?

Hey, I'm here to learn and understand more about this stuff, I don't want to create hate arguments. I wrote the OP at 10:30 at night, so I was going on fumes (real tired).

Probably not a good idea to write an argumentative essay when you're zombified. lol

[RDS79]

MacAttack původně napsal:

What is it? And what purpose does it serve? I couldn't find anything specific on it, just an article from Digital Foundry rambling on about how HRAA does a better job than conventional aliaising on PC.

They didn't provide any high-res, side-by-side comparison images either, so you can't see how much "better" it is over conventional aliasing like MSAA or TXAA. I think DF is biased anyway, they seem to favor the consoles.

They seem to forget we have MFAA, which appears to do the same thing. Anyway, does anyone here know what it does? I am assuming HRAA stands for High-Resolution Anti-Aliasing? Or no?

I also heard the GPU in the PS4 is the equivalent of about 150 dollars (if I remember correctly). All I can say is, ain't no way a 150 dollar GPU is going to crank out better aliasing quality than a PC with a proper graphics card in it. I had an old GTX 750Ti, which is still sold for about 150 dollars depending on make and model, and I couldn't play games with aliasing if I wanted to keep 50-60 frames on medium/high settings. I could get away with light aliasing, but anything higher, and performace started to drop.

Really, the point of this post is just to see if anyone has any knowledge on what HRAA is. DF says it's on the consoles only, but who cares about that when I know that a PC clearly has superior aliasing anyway? If I end up being wrong, I stand corrected. But as of right now, I'm not convinced.

If it tickles your fancy, you can read the article here:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-far-cry-4-face-off

If it in any way involves anything other than superscaling, it isn't real AA, as real AA doesn't dull the image (as do TXAA, FXAA, SMAA, and all other "post" methods of anti-aliasing). The only "real" AA modes are *solely* rendered, i.e. MSAA (edge superscaling), CSAA (enhanced MSAA), and SSAA (full screen superscaling, e.g. DSR--no way this is happening on a console GPU). Everything else is "fake," dulling the image (ultimately), and is in no way superior to what we have on PC (forgetting TXAA--it's simply MSAA smeared with "post" AA), despite the marketing to the contrary. There is ultimately no alternative to superscaling, and the fact is that console GPUs are simply too weak to do so (hence, HRAA, which employs post methods [see below] and therefore dulls the image, by nature).

My advice? Set MSAA to 4x (in-game, if available) (or CSAA to 16x; this is 4X MSAA with 12 additional color samples--doesn't use much more power than 4X MSAA), then superscale (DSR) the entire image as much as your GPUs will allow (MSAA uses far less GPU power than SSAA, and edge antialising remains the most important, in my opinion). Even 2X SSAA (DSR) makes a *huge* difference in overall image quality (though that alone isn't sufficient for edges, which is why MSAA/CSAA should be prioritized by setting them to a minimum standard level). Forget about all other AA modes; no AA is superior to "smearing" AA ("post" AA), which is basically equivalent to "digital noise reduction" being used by film studios to strip film grain from Blu-Ray releases at the expense of texture quality (resolution) (to avoid having to do new, expensive transfers of films).

Oh, and HRAA stands for "Hybrid Reconstruction Anti-Aliasing." See here: http://michaldrobot.com/2014/08/13/hraa-siggraph-2014-slides-available/

[MacAttack]

nad9734 původně napsal:

MacAttack původně napsal:

What is it? And what purpose does it serve? I couldn't find anything specific on it, just an article from Digital Foundry rambling on about how HRAA does a better job than conventional aliaising on PC.

They didn't provide any high-res, side-by-side comparison images either, so you can't see how much "better" it is over conventional aliasing like MSAA or TXAA. I think DF is biased anyway, they seem to favor the consoles.

They seem to forget we have MFAA, which appears to do the same thing. Anyway, does anyone here know what it does? I am assuming HRAA stands for High-Resolution Anti-Aliasing? Or no?

I also heard the GPU in the PS4 is the equivalent of about 150 dollars (if I remember correctly). All I can say is, ain't no way a 150 dollar GPU is going to crank out better aliasing quality than a PC with a proper graphics card in it. I had an old GTX 750Ti, which is still sold for about 150 dollars depending on make and model, and I couldn't play games with aliasing if I wanted to keep 50-60 frames on medium/high settings. I could get away with light aliasing, but anything higher, and performace started to drop.

Really, the point of this post is just to see if anyone has any knowledge on what HRAA is. DF says it's on the consoles only, but who cares about that when I know that a PC clearly has superior aliasing anyway? If I end up being wrong, I stand corrected. But as of right now, I'm not convinced.

If it tickles your fancy, you can read the article here:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-far-cry-4-face-off

If it in any way involves anything other than superscaling, it isn't real AA, as real AA doesn't dull the image (as do TXAA, FXAA, SMAA, and all other "post" methods of anti-aliasing). The only "real" AA modes are "rendered," i.e. MSAA (edge superscaling), CSAA (enhanced MSAA), and SSAA (full screen superscaling, e.g. DSR--no way this is happening on a console GPU). Everything else is "fake," dulling the image (ultimately), and is in no way superior to what we have on PC (forgetting TXAA--it's simply MSAA smeared with "post" AA). I hope this helps.

My advice? Set MSAA to 4x (in-game, if available) (or CSAA to 16x; this is 4X MSAA with 12 additional color samples--doesn't use much more power than 4X MSAA), then superscale (DSR) the entire image as much as your GPUs will allow (MSAA uses far less GPU power than SSAA, and edge antialising remains the most important, in my opinion). Even 2X SSAA (DSR) makes a *huge* difference in overall image quality (though that alone isn't sufficient for edges, which is why MSAA/CSAA should be prioritized by setting them to a minimum standard level). Forget about all other AA modes. :)

You know, I forget about SSAA and SMAA. It makes sense. So, if I understand what you're talking about, any sort of post-process aliasing creates a "blurred" scene, at least at distance? So does that mean any aliasing technique that involves sampling off everything (is that a thing?) instead of post-process, the image will look better? I am assuming post-process aliasing means that it samples only what is needed? Or no? Does post-process effects render aliasing on everything in the scene, or just parts of it?

I know what each aliasing looks like. And I've seen the affects of each aliasing technique and what it does to the image quality and overall look of a game, but not what they do specifically. i.e. why does it look that way? And how does it work?

As an example, I have AC Unity set with FXAA. I know it's fast approximate aliasing, but it looks better than with no aliasing. Edges flicker when it's off and it almost looks identical to TXAA. It takes less power than TXAA and doesn't suffer as much of a performance hit. Though, it did appear that TXAA rendered futher than FXAA, at least for Unity. It appear to be that way, although it could just be me.

[RDS79]

MacAttack původně napsal:

nad9734 původně napsal:

If it in any way involves anything other than superscaling, it isn't real AA, as real AA doesn't dull the image (as do TXAA, FXAA, SMAA, and all other "post" methods of anti-aliasing). The only "real" AA modes are "rendered," i.e. MSAA (edge superscaling), CSAA (enhanced MSAA), and SSAA (full screen superscaling, e.g. DSR--no way this is happening on a console GPU). Everything else is "fake," dulling the image (ultimately), and is in no way superior to what we have on PC (forgetting TXAA--it's simply MSAA smeared with "post" AA). I hope this helps.

My advice? Set MSAA to 4x (in-game, if available) (or CSAA to 16x; this is 4X MSAA with 12 additional color samples--doesn't use much more power than 4X MSAA), then superscale (DSR) the entire image as much as your GPUs will allow (MSAA uses far less GPU power than SSAA, and edge antialising remains the most important, in my opinion). Even 2X SSAA (DSR) makes a *huge* difference in overall image quality (though that alone isn't sufficient for edges, which is why MSAA/CSAA should be prioritized by setting them to a minimum standard level). Forget about all other AA modes. :)

You know, I forget about SSAA and SMAA. It makes sense. So, if I understand what you're talking about, any sort of post-process aliasing creates a "blurred" scene, at least at distance? So does that mean any aliasing technique that involves sampling off everything (is that a thing?) instead of post-process, the image will look better? I am assuming post-process aliasing means that it samples only what is needed? Or no? Does post-process effects render aliasing on everything in the scene, or just parts of it?

I know what each aliasing looks like. And I've seen the affects of each aliasing technique and what it does to the image quality and overall look of a game, but not what they do specifically. i.e. why does it look that way? And how does it work?

As an example, I have AC Unity set with FXAA. I know it's fast approximate aliasing, but it looks better than with no aliasing. Edges flicker when it's off and it almost looks identical to TXAA. It takes less power than TXAA and doesn't suffer as much of a performance hit. Though, it did appear that TXAA rendered futher than FXAA, at least for Unity. It appear to be that way, although it could just be me.

Check out the attachment at the link I edited in above; covers all modes, more or less. FXAA woks by dulling edges. If you prefer it, you're likely sitting too far away from your screen or your screen is too small relative to your seating position. When both are correct, the negative effects of FXAA are noticeable (as textures are dulled).

[MacAttack]

nad9734 původně napsal:

MacAttack původně napsal:

You know, I forget about SSAA and SMAA. It makes sense. So, if I understand what you're talking about, any sort of post-process aliasing creates a "blurred" scene, at least at distance? So does that mean any aliasing technique that involves sampling off everything (is that a thing?) instead of post-process, the image will look better? I am assuming post-process aliasing means that it samples only what is needed? Or no? Does post-process effects render aliasing on everything in the scene, or just parts of it?

I know what each aliasing looks like. And I've seen the affects of each aliasing technique and what it does to the image quality and overall look of a game, but not what they do specifically. i.e. why does it look that way? And how does it work?

As an example, I have AC Unity set with FXAA. I know it's fast approximate aliasing, but it looks better than with no aliasing. Edges flicker when it's off and it almost looks identical to TXAA. It takes less power than TXAA and doesn't suffer as much of a performance hit. Though, it did appear that TXAA rendered futher than FXAA, at least for Unity. It appear to be that way, although it could just be me.

Check out the attachment at the link I edited in above; covers all modes, more or less.

Yeah, just saw that. "Hybrid Reconstuction Anti-Aliasing." So now it makes more sense.

[RDS79]

MacAttack původně napsal:

nad9734 původně napsal:

Check out the attachment at the link I edited in above; covers all modes, more or less.

Yeah, just saw that. "Hybrid Reconstuction Anti-Aliasing." So now it makes more sense.

This is nothing new, really--consoles simply can't afford real AA (superscaling). This is just another cheat that is inferior to SSAA (by a mile). :)

[RDS79]

MacAttack původně napsal:

nad9734 původně napsal:

Check out the attachment at the link I edited in above; covers all modes, more or less.

Yeah, just saw that. "Hybrid Reconstuction Anti-Aliasing." So now it makes more sense.

EDIT: It's not infested with viruses is it?

Ha...no idea of viruses. Nothing adverse has happened while I've been scanning it for the past five minutes, though. Interestingly, it looks like the PowerPoint was just released today (today's date on the first slide).

[MacAttack]

nad9734 původně napsal:

MacAttack původně napsal:

Yeah, just saw that. "Hybrid Reconstuction Anti-Aliasing." So now it makes more sense.

EDIT: It's not infested with viruses is it?

Ha...no idea of viruses. Nothing adverse has happened while I've been scanning it for the past five minutes, though.

Ah, alright then. Cause I'd like to read it.

[RDS79]

MacAttack původně napsal:

nad9734 původně napsal:

Ha...no idea of viruses. Nothing adverse has happened while I've been scanning it for the past five minutes, though.

Ah, alright then. Cause I'd like to read it.

It has today's date on the first slide, interestingly. So, if it does contain malware, etc., it probably wouldn't be known as of yet. Too late! :)

[RDS79]

MacAttack původně napsal:

nad9734 původně napsal:

Ha...no idea of viruses. Nothing adverse has happened while I've been scanning it for the past five minutes, though.

Ah, alright then. Cause I'd like to read it.

I previously used 32-64X CSAA with every game whose engine would allow for it (downscaling, prior to DSR, caused reduction in brightness over HDMI, for some reason). Since DSR, I've ditched CSAA and now set all games to 4X MSAA and supercale to the limits of my GPUs (two 680s) at 1080/60 (locked). 4X SSAA (DSR) blows away 64X CSAA (in terms of overall quality), interestingly, while using comparable GPU power. In short, the only real solution to aliasing is more GPU power. :)

[RDS79]

MacAttack původně napsal:

nad9734 původně napsal:

Ha...no idea of viruses. Nothing adverse has happened while I've been scanning it for the past five minutes, though.

Ah, alright then. Cause I'd like to read it.

If you have virtually no GPU power to spare for AA, I recommend SMAAInjector (then to enable FXAA by hitting the "pause" key, after setting SMAA to "ultra" within the configuration file). It uses almost no GPU power and does a better job of edge aliasing reduction than other tools I've used or seen (including Nvidia's FXAA and games' built-in FXAA/SMAA), whatever the reason; the deterioration of texture quality is minimal (though this is still highly inferior to SSAA, of course). :)