TSW or Classic

[dougsie]

I just noticed Train Sim Classic on Steam. Does anyone have both? Are they different? Which one is better or are they the same?

[GenX-Gamore]

Origineel geplaatst door MugHug:

Origineel geplaatst door N Quarter:

DTG did not create TS Classic. It was developed by Kuju [haven't loaded into it for a long time, but it should still say "Kuju" down the bottom on the initial Loading Screen].

We know that DTG did not create 'Rail Simulator', which was renamed to 'Railworks' by DTG and then changed name again to 'Train Simulator, Train Simulator 20xx and finally 'Train Simulator Classic. But both are owned by DTG.

It seems that GenX is talking about how that one of the reasons DTG wanted to create TSW is that they could not progress in a meaningful way with TSC and the original OLD game engine.
*Snip

Yeah, that is a close enough assessment.

[GenX-Gamore]

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

Origineel geplaatst door N Quarter:

DTG did not create TS Classic. It was developed by Kuju [haven't loaded into it for a long time, but it should still say "Kuju" down the bottom on the initial Loading Screen].

As per the Steam store, it shows DTG is the DEv and publisher of the Core game
https://store.steampowered.com/app/24010/Train_Simulator_Classic_2024/
I have seen many different Dev teams like Smokebox just to name one.
Okay, I see now that Kuju was the dev back when MSTS was released, but KuJu was still involved in some capacity, have a hard time getting good info, everything comes back to DTG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Train_Simulator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_Simulator_Classic
https://live.dovetailgames.com/live/train-simulator/history
I did get it running after an update and set it to windowed and now when I try to launch it, it just stays as an icon on the taskbar. See what happens with a file verification.

Well if anyone tries to set windowed mod in TSC as I did and it would not open, the answer is here how to correct it, worked like a charm.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/24010/discussions/8/357287935550875924/#c357287935565839289

[N Quarter]

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

I have seen many different Dev teams like Smokebox just to name one.

Smokebox is just a 3rd Party Dev, they just build Loco's and sell them on the Platform. They have nothing to do with Development for the Platform at all.

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

As per the Steam store, it shows DTG is the DEv and publisher of the Core game - Okay, I see now that Kuju was the dev back when MSTS was released, but KuJu was still involved in some capacity, have a hard time getting good info

It says they are the Developer and Publisher on the Steam Page because they are the legal owners of the Title currently, but they did not Develop Software, they simply bought the rights to it.

Origineel geplaatst door Wiki:

RailWorks' predecessor, Rail Simulator, was developed by Kuju Entertainment, the same company that developed Microsoft Train Simulator with Microsoft. With the release of Rail Simulator in October 2007, Kuju Entertainment finished development and disbanded the development team, turning its attention to the next project.

Knowing the potential of their proprietary game engine, and with backing from Fund4Games (Tim Gatland and Charlie McMicking), a new company was set up called Rail Simulator Developments Ltd (RSDL) from some of the core members of the initial development team with the specific aim of fulfilling continued development of the brand and supporting users and third-party developers with add-on projects. RSDL produced two patches to the core simulator, developed and released add-ons, helped the release of third-party products, and visited exhibitions to promote the simulation and provide support for users via several community websites.

In April 2009, the formation of a new company was announced.[2] Jackson, Gatland and McMicking went on to set up RailSimulator.com Ltd (RSC), employing many of the original creative team, along with Steve Bainbridge (previously of Electronic Arts and GAME stores) and Duncan Best (previously British Academy Video Games Awards, ELSPA and Director of the London Games Festival).[3]

Development switched to a new version of the software called RailWorks, which would be released on Steam. This change heralded a break from Electronic Arts being the publisher in Europe and rights over the source code for Rail Simulator being transferred to single ownership by RailSimulator.com Ltd.[4] After improving the software, they launched RailWorks in June 2009. The company has released yearly updates since then, with the latest version, Train Simulator Classic, released in April 2022.

On 9 December 2013, it was announced that RailSimulator.com has changed its name to Dovetail Games.[5] The company said that it was in the early stages of developing a range of completely new simulation products to sit alongside Train Simulator, and this broader perspective required a new company name.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovetail_Games

So DTG's snailtrail is - RSDL > RSC > DTG

[pgraham87015]

The problem with TSC is that all the routes and Locomotives and units are scenario based only. If you've forked £25 out for a route and only get a few scenarios you're going to feel shortchanged. But there's a lot good routes on TSC.

TSW all versions the routes are limited as in not as many available but there are timetabled trains.

One thing that really annoys me is the repetition of the same locos in some routes such as the Class 66 and class 47 also the Class 101. Another example is the Manchester Airport route going to be a class 323, when couldn't have been the Class 397 or the Class 195/331?

[GenX-Gamore]

Origineel geplaatst door N Quarter:

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

I have seen many different Dev teams like Smokebox just to name one.

Smokebox is just a 3rd Party Dev, they just build Loco's and sell them on the Platform. They have nothing to do with Development for the Platform at all.

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

As per the Steam store, it shows DTG is the DEv and publisher of the Core game - Okay, I see now that Kuju was the dev back when MSTS was released, but KuJu was still involved in some capacity, have a hard time getting good info

It says they are the Developer and Publisher on the Steam Page because they are the legal owners of the Title currently, but they did not Develop Software, they simply bought the rights to it.

Origineel geplaatst door Wiki:

RailWorks' predecessor, Rail Simulator, was developed by Kuju Entertainment, the same company that developed Microsoft Train Simulator with Microsoft. With the release of Rail Simulator in October 2007, Kuju Entertainment finished development and disbanded the development team, turning its attention to the next project.

Knowing the potential of their proprietary game engine, and with backing from Fund4Games (Tim Gatland and Charlie McMicking), a new company was set up called Rail Simulator Developments Ltd (RSDL) from some of the core members of the initial development team with the specific aim of fulfilling continued development of the brand and supporting users and third-party developers with add-on projects. RSDL produced two patches to the core simulator, developed and released add-ons, helped the release of third-party products, and visited exhibitions to promote the simulation and provide support for users via several community websites.

In April 2009, the formation of a new company was announced.[2] Jackson, Gatland and McMicking went on to set up RailSimulator.com Ltd (RSC), employing many of the original creative team, along with Steve Bainbridge (previously of Electronic Arts and GAME stores) and Duncan Best (previously British Academy Video Games Awards, ELSPA and Director of the London Games Festival).[3]

Development switched to a new version of the software called RailWorks, which would be released on Steam. This change heralded a break from Electronic Arts being the publisher in Europe and rights over the source code for Rail Simulator being transferred to single ownership by RailSimulator.com Ltd.[4] After improving the software, they launched RailWorks in June 2009. The company has released yearly updates since then, with the latest version, Train Simulator Classic, released in April 2022.

On 9 December 2013, it was announced that RailSimulator.com has changed its name to Dovetail Games.[5] The company said that it was in the early stages of developing a range of completely new simulation products to sit alongside Train Simulator, and this broader perspective required a new company name.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovetail_Games

So DTG's snailtrail is - RSDL > RSC > DTG

I do understand that DTG did not create TSC, but now they do own it and work with 3rd party devs, just like Rivet, Skyhook, Just Trains, for TSW, and a few others but they DTG maintains and updates the Core game,

And currently, DTG is just a subsidiary of Focus/PullUp, at this point whoever owns it is the Developer and publisher, go back far enough it all, for all intense and purposes, started with MSTS.

Yes, there is a lot of history behind DTG TSC and TSW, as it stands today DTG is under the control of Focus-ie; Pullup, Own, and update make changes, and contract with 3rd party Dev teams or individuals to create content, then there is the many Free content creators.

And what gets even more convoluted is, how does Maximum Games fit in with "Train Sim World 5" Look at YT videos they now show this, But when searching, only TSW3 comes up under the Maximum Games. The bottom line DTG controls TSC and regardless of who is the original creator.

[N Quarter]

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

The bottom line DTG controls TSC and regardless of who is the original creator.

Indeed, but I was simply answering the below you mentioned;

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

Both are DTG products, so how is it that TSC can have and do so much more than TSW when DTG develops both?

So basically, TS Classic is more popular simply because the Core Features that Kuju and Microsoft created provided an open Platform for Railfans to really take flight and make it their own. It opened the Door for a lot of freedom and creativity to create and share amongst the Community.

TSW's release put a full block on any creativity, and no matter how hard they try and make something, and scream about how fantastic it is, it is simply just a pile of turd that doesn't provide any means of creativity.

One of the biggest issues I believe, is simply because Kuju and Microsoft were working on a "Simulation" title, and back then, Simulation Games were taken more seriously instead of this piss take on the genre you will find on the Market now. There is just no love for depth of the industry or audience anymore.

Kuju and Microsoft had no choice but to hire actual talent for their Teams as they were physically coding everything themselves, unlike nowadays it's mainly drag and drop features which heavily rely on a Gaming Engine aimed as being "easy to use".

These Gaming Engines remove the real Talent from the picture, as there is less coding that is actually required, so their current Team in DTG are only capable of "current day and age Coding on a easy to use Engine".

This is why when RSDL/RSC no longer had any of the original Developers from Kuju, they really started struggling with coding in TS Classic.

For years when DTG were very active on the Steam Forums, DTG_Martin would always tell me that "the Engine is holding us back", "we can't fix this because of an outdated Engine", "Engine this, Engine that".

They blamed everything on the Engine, because they simply had no clue how to work with physical coding.

Gaming in general has changed due to a lot of this, it's all about using these Engines to provide a lot of "shiny", however there is lack of Skill on Teams to provide some "good quality products".

Not only that, but the fact that DTG went in the direction to favour Consoles was a MASSIVE mistake.

It's not the fact that Simulators don't work on a Console, but when you focus the entire Development around Console's, then you remove the majority of what you can achieve.

As sad as this may be, I really do struggle seeing much future in the TSW Franchise, because I honestly cannot see them changing their ways, they will consistently try and hide their Negative Reviews each and every Year, and they will forever provide half cooked products and features.

From the time I was playing TS Classic between 2013/2022 which is the last I played from what I remember, DTG had not actually done much to the Core Engine itself. They gave it a Graphics overhaul around 2015/16 and added the Learning Center [or what ever it is called], and release countless DLC's.

I honestly cannot think of a single "feature" they have added EVER in TS Classic since my time playing.

They can create some nice Routes, but that's about all. I see no Talent apart from that within the entire Company.

Too many failed attempts at products, too blind to see where they are going wrong, too selfish to give a sht.

[dougsie]

Origineel geplaatst door N Quarter:

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

The bottom line DTG controls TSC and regardless of who is the original creator.

Indeed, but I was simply answering the below you mentioned;

Origineel geplaatst door GenX-Gamore:

From the time I was playing TS Classic between 2013/2022 which is the last I played from what I remember, DTG had not actually done much to the Core Engine itself. They gave it a Graphics overhaul around 2015/16 and added the Learning Center [or what ever it is called], and release countless DLC's.

I honestly cannot think of a single "feature" they have added EVER in TS Classic since my time playing.

They can create some nice Routes, but that's about all. I see no Talent apart from that within the entire Company.

Too many failed attempts at products, too blind to see where they are going wrong, too selfish to give a sht.

I can accept that, in your opinion, you consider them blind in their objectives but selfish is being subjective and merely your conjecture. This does not help your argument in the Court of Comments. When you are being objective

I find you make very good arguments but let us remember staff at DTG are using their own time to upgrade older dlc's (according to the blurb - which they shouldn't, it should be a push by the company) so selfish in that context does not fit.

[N Quarter]

Origineel geplaatst door dougsie:

but let us remember staff at DTG are using their own time to upgrade older dlc's (according to the blurb - which they shouldn't, it should be a push by the company) so selfish in that context does not fit.

It is 100% selfish, these people who are slaving away for free are obviously doing it for their own passion, but I'm not talking about individual members, I'm talking about an entire Company as a whole and their overall vision.

DTG are aware of what is going on, they are seeing the positive feedback over it, yet they are sitting there simply allowing "free improvements" land right in their lap while they reap the reward from it.

How can you NOT call this selfish?

At the end of the day, the above is if this is all true. I haven't bothered reading into any of it, however this is what I've seen on the Forums.

[GenX-Gamore]

Origineel geplaatst door N Quarter:

*Snip
Too many failed attempts at products, too blind to see where they are going wrong, too selfish to give a sht.

Well, yes, and being beholden to investors and the board of directors, I would not be surprised if Maximum Games is not somehow pushing funds into DTG/Focus/PullUp to Keep things alive. Some modders have walked away from TSW5 and Stated outright that they are done with TSW or just not going to Buy it all. Get the Freebie, and that is it.
When you as a game Developer are losing the modding community or some part of it, clearly there is an issue. Without dropping names, one modder created a completely new Timetable for TSW4 and it adds so much to the game, But buying TSW5 = NO...

--{ I will keep this mod updated but personally have given up on that trainwreck called TSW. I'm fully back on Train Sim Classic and SimRail, where a few months ago I posted the suggestion for adjustable cams and they've now implemented that, even saving your preset per loco. Don't expect any further additions to this mod, as said I'll update if needed but won't spend any more cash on TSW. }

And well-known modders mind you...

Subway Sim Hamberg is a pretty good game, BUT?

Because not long ago this was announced.
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1925090/view/4236280100264293145
--Then This sooo?
I am waiting to see what happens with SubwaySim 2 https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2707070

As screwed up and shaky as FO3 & 4 can be and while 76 did get some major patches and seems to have gotten better as I hear. You can still fully mod FO3 & 4 With the G.E.C.K. and many still are making mods for both, not sure how it works with FO76 due to the MP aspect, but mods are being made and Bethesda can be just as annoying to deal with. But I digress...

[GenX-Gamore]

Actually, GWE is being remastered but it's being done in the Dev's free time, there is a pretty long thread ongoing on DTG forums on just this one "Route"
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/gwe-remaster-appreciation-and-discussion-thread.83852/#post-880669