Mage spell design

[MochiiKing]

Why do mages spells cost a ton of power points. Its like I never cast their spells which do piddly damage vs monsters hundreds of HP. If they blow all their mana they can kill maybe 1 monster.

I don't understand this design. They do have some utility with light spell and cold/fire environment spells but combat wise I don't get it. Can someone enlighten me?

BTW Im around lvl 29 or so.

[anramses]

By that point in the game, Mages are primarily CC or wound bots. It is really tempting to run without a mage but not sure I could do away with the cc. Basically, pick what works best, ice or lightning for a given group and spam the cheapest, most effect version of that spell line.

[Kordanor]

The best return in terms of Damage for invested Mana is to be found in the DOT Spells I guess.
I am currently level 20 and 90% of the time I am using Flames, a Level 7 spell.
The Fireball, which is a level 20 spell should be even more efficient (when also increased to level 5 of course) as it does ~ twice the damage + twice the dot damage, costs twice the mana but also affects 3 targets instead of one.

And that is pretty much continued by Inferno, which is 2*everything of fireball and hits all enemies.

At the moment my biggest concern with these spells is, that the Herald of Golot doesn't get the time to convert all the enemies into money. ^^

[I'm Gonna Butta Yo Bread]

I'm also pretty disappointed with my mage around lvl 25. The only thing he offers that I find necessary right now is the end of flames spell so I can move through certain maps. He can cast about 6 or 7 spells before being out of mana (having leveled energy and meditation every single level) unless I use low level spells like flames or sparks which do less damage than an attacks from my melee or bow characters. I'm still in the process of leveling up fireball to max level, so maybe he'll be better then.

[Kordanor]

You will still be out of mana extremely quick of course and the mage might seem useles there.
But at that point he does more damage than the rest of the crew by doing nothing but let the dots tick.

[Andra]

It's also worth noting that you can and should expect to turn mages into potion junkies. In a sense they are somewhat similar to thieves, whose job is often to stack bleed. Personally I don't use mages in any of my parties and have no trouble in most of the game.

But then I often expect to use the back rank as supporters for a stronger front rank. So mages should look to fit in that role, DESPITE their early game dominance. That's just a nice bonus.

I tend to not even spec EN on casters since it only gives 2 a level, and an extra 200 mana might be like one spell on a mage... 300-400 health on the other hand? Very nice. I'm sure you could mix and match though.

As Kordanor says though, those DoT's can be AMAZING. Learn to love them. My biggest issue with them is time (my time) as they often need to rest between encounters if you use spells... whereas a more melee team might need less rest. Cleric can heal them out of battle and spend trash fights using prayer to get himself back up, with no downtime.

So if im going to be resting between every fight id build a team around that. Maybe with Arcane soldiers or DS or other mana hungry people. Powerful strike soldiers, etc... That way everyone gets the benefit of the constant rests. Instead of 5 people waiting on the lazy-ass mage.

[Karol13]

I fully agree that mages are much weaker then exptected.
It could be tweaked with mage specific skill that would decrease spell costs (instead or in addition to meditation that just adds few extra PPs)
Also only 5 levels per spell is not that great.
Many spells do cost extra mana, because they freeze, wound... but most enemies are just immune to the extra effects. I would not mind mage that does little damage, as long the freezing, wounding, bleeding is always effective and stronger.
If mage could not cast incenerate air or extinguish fire, I would be sorry to have one.
At least spells always hit.

[stretch]

You should combine mage spells with melee attacks. It really will depend on your speed to set the order of attack as to how exactly you do these.
Try :
The stun from lightning means that they cannot dodge a melee attack. It comes in a really cheap 1x then the 3x which is awesome and then the 5x which I didn't get till I had pretty much nothing left to kill at lvl 45ish.
Don't mix attacks. Focus on fire if you wish but if you do then don't break the dot with an ice attack.
Use the freeze from ice attacks to make another unavoidable melee attack. No dot just extra instant damage and a freeze. Pretty good on it's own but add a melee attack that can't be avoided and BOOM.

I went with 2 mages this time through and with both casting lightning stun lock I could do titans and they would only hit me 4 or so times during the entire fight. Although it can suck some power potions if you use the better 3x lightning attack as it stuns longer and hits harder. The 1x attack works but tougher enemies will break more often.

Once you learn what spells you want it's easier to build a good mage as they have so many choices. Both my mages have 15 or so spells that I never invested a single point in.

I had nothing but sparks until lvl 15+ on both of them.

Get speed and energy only on skill up.

Leave skill points for the next level up. you don't NEED to spend everything everytime.

Get armour skill. You don't really need the armour but it does help and the more you can wear the more stat/resist gear you can get on.

My mages wore 4x 5%xp items and the rest absolute resist gear. They are sitting on 85+ to everything currently. 100% would be easy as pie to get to but I compromised for xp.

Give the right classes the right boosts. Energy, power and some hps to the casters.


Mages are awesome if you focus. If you spread points over everything and give them no power pool then they will suck.

edit DON"T mix dots with stun lock as the dots need the enemies to take a turn to do any damage.

[MochiiKing]

So mages are made for boss fights if you build them right. Your mage is almost guaranteed to suck on your first playthrough along with divine summoner.

Also it's not great design that I dont want to lvl up my skills because it increases the mana cost. I have an arcane soldier who I left at lvl 1 flame strike, because the increase in dmg didn't seem worth increase in power point cost.

[stretch]

For dots to work you need to let the enemies take a turn. If they are taking a turn they are hurting you. It's a painful way to fight. Stunlocking can mean that they never even get a hit on you. You can stun with many classes in many ways. Since spells don't miss they are a safer bet.

Originally posted by lus:

So mages are made for boss fights if you build them right. Your mage is almost guaranteed to suck on your first playthrough along with divine summoner.

Also it's not great design that I dont want to lvl up my skills because it increases the mana cost. I have an arcane soldier who I left at lvl 1 flame strike, because the increase in dmg didn't seem worth increase in power point cost.

Mages don't only work for boss fights. Lightning stun comes in single and triple attack fairly early on. That means any fight with 3 or less enemies are trivial (unless immune). Start with blizzard or inferno to clear the back ranks of trash then 3x lightning the front rank into oblivion. Use Arcane soldier or stun melee attacks to extend the stun from lightning but as melee attacks can miss you cannot count on them to initiate a stunlock.
With a speed build you will clear a full field down to 3 or less in the first round. You should be pretty good at it by the time you get to the lvl 40+ demon fights that actually require a little thought.

I didn't like divine summoner. I didn't get it past lvl 10 or so but I didn't like it. Maybe if it had pets that spawned with the fight instead of having to cast them it would be better.

And yeah investing too much in a spell can make the costs far, far too high for little reward. A couple of points in each one is the best value if you want the effect more than the damage. The damage increase is vary marginal after the first few points but the power cost climbs steadily.

The huge bonus with stun is the sure fire melee hit it gives you. Dot's wont work effectively if you never let them take a turn because they are stunned but they do stack so if it breaks they will take BIG hits from what you have on them.

[Kordanor]

If you have the mana to cast the spell, it is always worth to level them as it increases the efficiency. on 5 a spell with cost twice as much to cast and do 3 times the damage. This is the case for all damage spells.

Edit: Dots also tick on stunned targets but only after the full turned passed. So they arent as effective there, but they are also not useless.

[Theduke22]

People love mages, they're overpowered, you should have two of them, blah blah blah.

My reality has been that they start strong and get progressively weaker as the game progresses, whereas most melee classes are the opposite. I ditched the mage on my IM game and am glad I did it. They get a bump much later on when they get their absorb spell, so can actually cast more during fights, but I always thought they should have gotten the spell (albiet a toned-down version) when the cleric gets divine prayer, to make combat more interesting so they aren't having to micro manage pp and defend or attack with their staff feebly on most turns for most of the game. Otherwise they're boring, and past level 20 or 30, have limited usefulness, particularly if you take an arcane soldier to handle mage utility spells and hammering. As for CC, plenty of classes do it just as well or better: a 2H hammer user, especially with some points in stun attack, a bard, an AS with frost strike and icy touch...

The best thing mages have going for them is that their spells can't miss. If you can do away with or replicate that (with lots of melee wounding attacks, whatever), then you really won't find that you miss them.

[Star Paladin]

Don't forget, flames effect 2 targets, not just one.

[UnluckyNoob]

Sure, mages are underpowered. Weak mage killed 4600 hp temple guardian at lvl 23 on 300%.

Really stuns, burn and bleed should be nerfed. These things make game too easy.

[stretch]

Originally posted by Kordanor:

If you have the mana to cast the spell, it is always worth to level them as it increases the efficiency. on 5 a spell with cost twice as much to cast and do 3 times the damage. This is the case for all damage spells.

Edit: Dots also tick on stunned targets but only after the full turned passed. So they arent as effective there, but they are also not useless.

Thankyou for the info. I am not sure what counts as a full turn though since speed modifiers and the spell/ability used means that I can get 3 or more hits in with one toon before the slowest one even gets a shot. I have now that you mention that seen some random dot effects occur so you must be correct I just don't know how it is timed. I guess once everyone has had a go the round is complete but it is a little random.

Originally posted by UnluckyNoob:

Sure, mages are underpowered. Weak mage killed 4600 hp temple guardian at lvl 23 on 300%.

Really stuns, burn and bleed should be nerfed. These things make game too easy.

Awesome for getting that nasty healer/summoner who hides in the back row behind the tank.

[Thanatos]

Mage was pretty good early game (spells don't miss) but has now turned out to be extremely lackluster. You can blow your entire mana pool on two spells and then you're left sitting there plinking away with your crappy staff or just defending.

Mages desperately need a move similar to the Cleric's Divine Prayer - a move they can use for free to restore some of their PP. And, imo, it should restore maybe 2x what Divine Prayer does (but not restore HP). Yes you can chug pots but so can everyone else - and compared to the PP/dmg output of some of the physical class abilities and mages aren't stacking up especially for single targets. Add to it they have no damage when they're out of PP and no durability whatsoever and it's a bit disappointing that they only excel at AOE, but only for 2 turns because then you have no PP left and it's time to rest again. They need SOMETHING to do when they're out of PP.