On merits of learning

[yhal003]

Just about every guide recommends rising learning from level 8 onwards.

The end result - 10 levels or more by the end game is impressive, and even though it does not give all the skill points back, those become irrelevant later on. But during the game? Before level 18 we get absolutely nothing. When party with learning reaches level 30, party without it would be at 27. This is 3 extra levels at the cost of 29 skill points. I haven't finished the game yet (current party lvl 37, just killed the last prince) but the it becomes much easier at levels 30 or so, and I don't think it is going to get any harder.

So, we are spending valuable skill points when those are scarce and in return get levels when those are not necessary anymore. Or am I missing something?

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

The main point is that you get higher level skills sooner. There's a few instances where this is exceptionally useful.

[yhal003]

Examples? I mean, mass regeneration is really cool but by that time +/- 3 levels do not matter that much. Game does not seem to encourage killing higher level opponents anyway. Full stack guards of the first prince not withstanding.

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

Mass Regen is probably the best example from vanilla. I'm sure there's more, but I see absolutely no merit in not taking Learning so...

And technically it does, even if you don't care about score. The first guard groups aren't the only example either.

[yhal003]

Just about every class has more useful skills than skill points available. Maybe cleric does not need much, but I can move something like perception from more skill starved chars. And some low level spells that become obsolete later on are very helpful early.

Or lets say we have a bard. Assuming bard song effectiveness depends on levels, those extra few would actually be useful. But bard needs weapon skill, merchant, identification and immunity at least and this is 5 points already. Add a song or two, fast reflexes and few points in armor and there is nothing left.

Originally posted by Celerity, Executor of Impunity:

Mass Regen is probably the best
And technically it does, even if you don't care about score. The first guard groups aren't the only example either.

There is desert guardian and Tower of Time sentinel, and maybe elite stack on the way to Hemeleth. But those are still killed before learning starts to have significant effect. After that pretty much the entire map is open, and you are free to grind levels as needed.

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

The main purpose, aside from score is the snowball effect. You have 70 levels, you're gonna get the combat skills anyways. And I dunno about you but at the end I was just burning points on random life/mana boosts because there was nothing left and that was with Learning and without skill point farming.

[yhal003]

And is there any enemy your party could not kill at level 60? You are loosing skill points from level 8 when you really need them for extra levels in late game when those are just a convenience.

Speaking of score, is there a known formula? Awarding extra points of experience is a bit counter intuitive, games should encourage efficiency, not grinding. But then again, if you need to go through the pain of wearing prophet gear and upping learning, this kind of makes sense :).

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

The prophet gimping is silly because the opportunity cost isn't worth it. Learning is. And while I do not know the exact mechanics, it is a level check. Meaning yes, killing things higher level than you gives more points. Very obvious with late game dog encounters. Either way, Learning is a free accelerant.

[yhal003]

Originally posted by Celerity, Executor of Impunity:

And while I do not know the exact mechanics, it is a level check. Meaning yes, killing things higher level than you gives more points. Very obvious with late game dog encounters.

Ah, now THAT makes sense. But wouldn't that mean you want to be lowest level possible for highest score instead?

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

Apparently it's also based on experience. I don't know, I don't see the point of point farming, but I do know that if you kill everything with Learning you get more than enough experience and skills.