HIgh Upkeep

[Emperor]

Upkeep is so freaking high, I m strength Rank 1, but I cant even field enough armies to protect my lands. Meanwhile smaller factions can field several full stacks. Playing as Ramses.

[dulany67]

Upkeep can be adjusted by setting.

[Kegbelly]

game has a settings menu on the start campaign window that allows you to adjust all that for yourself

[glittma]

I have to adjust upkeep. I'd love to know more about how players who don't adjust upkeep deal with fielding armies.

[NoSoyLeón]

As others say, campaign settings ->upkeep.

If you want to play your way out of it:

1. review provinces for food/bronze resources Food has many sources. Non-food settlements sometimes have food buildings available. As your land expands, consider refocusing provinces on food - not just city buildings, but outposts that give bonuses to food/resources-more-generally. Fortresses for idle units, as long as it's not going to lead to more waste moving a general around to recollect all of them. Recruiting next to a fortress can be a good method to reduce some loss here.

Even if what you can farm or mine doesn't amount to what you could make trading*, consider the resources it frees to do so further.

Finally, most settlements can build a 10% upkeep discount building. Thanks to Shogun for pointing this out below.

2. Mixed-tier armies: there is a strong urge to construct armies optimized for winning battles, right? You want only the strongest units who in every way will outperform your enemies units. That's natural.

problem is this is rarely sustainable. Notice tier 3 units are just a little less expensive than tier 4 units, and definitely not as good. So why not just pay a lil extra up front and each turn to field all T4's?

Because even 15 food per turn per unit difference (fpt/u) adds up to a 300 food per turn difference. Per army. Assuming no admin change,* a big assumption. And before you have a full army, it will take you 4 - 9 turns to fill up your whole army with default settings, each turn paying the fpt/u for all units recruit previously, + the face cost of recruiting all units. WHATEVER UNIT YOU RECRUIT AT THE BEGINING WILL COST ROUGHLY 1.5X ITS FACE VALUE IN UPKEEP BY THE TIME THE WHOLE ARMY IS RECRUITED. Not to mention, once recruited - you still have to support the army for the length of the conflict. As such, strategically recruiting more lower tier units & doing it before before high tier can save you literally thousands of food. Also lower tier=lower admin contribution.*

Even some t1's and t2's have use thru mid game, to carry battering rams and runners to run behind lines and paste rangers. While they may not defeat they can cause strategic pauses in enemy movement. And losing them is like nothing compared to the big units they are setting up to do they hard work.

So ultimately it's more about the army you need than the army you want. Hannibal brought Rome to it's knees with (for rhetorical purposes) t2 gaul warriors. They routed against the roman phalanx, which followed them into the jaws of a double envelopment with his (more or less) t4 units on the flanks and the center-rear, while his cavalry won their skirmishes and let the roman cav simply route instead of follow, to close the rear with repeated charges. If the #'s are true it was the greatest loss of human life in a single day due to war until roughly 2000 years later in the first world war. We have 3,000 years of history since then to look back on since the era depicted in this game; the factions we're playing with were making the first stakes in terms of permanently recorded history.

This struggle for food and equipment is what it is to be a general for all times. Armies march on their stomachs 1st, their sandals 2nd

3. Administrative Burden and Planned Deficit - you prolly notice every time you build up Militarily at certain mid-point stages, a single army of decent units will often push you into the next administration tier, which means increased costs. As such, many players believe the best method is to stockpile food, and plan to go, say 10 turns with a food deficit that's denting into a say, 25k or 50k food surplus. When the conflict is done, the army is disbanded entirely or largely, you go back to a fpt surplus, all is well.

One "fix" is trying to constantly push development so development instead of armies push you into the next tier - then you can confidently build armies and get used to calculating in your head about how much food you'll need to start an aggressive conflict.

Bonus is, if you do decide to build a strong army, the AI armies usually suck at at least h/h, so if you are an experienced general, you can leave a wake of destruction across the map and use your army to proactively pay for itself by winning battles with as few casualties as possible, so you can ransom captives. Some recommend 3/4 stacks farming loot from battles. I like a full stack of bruisers (my "main army") and a maybe 1/4 stack of cheap units (my "mosquito") who disable and hold back defensive outpost reinforcements and who can also bate ambushes w/ the larger army hidden in light forests where available. Works for most theaters for a planned number of turns

Also note the trade outpost that give -15% upkeep and certain religious choices that stack. Feels like 50% off upkeep I stg. I always make room for one in a good place when conquering new provinces, also to slingshot to defend from stray armies/new contestants

4. Raid and battle - much of what I should have put here got shuffled above. Basically, battles = loot and possibly ransom.

Raiding gives aight bonuses in this one. But also, raiding armies aren't affected by pay attrition. Basically, you can throw em in raid which should force attacks by enemies and will give you an extra lifeline if your food is cutting low. Raiding is also great to bait an ambush and add to income that way & possibly avoid the attrition altogether.

5. Careful trade - I always recommend a hardline diplomatic policy, frequently making 5 - 10 turn barters with nations I have interest in diplomacy with. Much better than N/A pacts which serve only for passive relation boosts When trade runs out you can renew or let lapse and make war.

With that basis, you can also stand to make a lot of profit trading what you have extra of for what you need more of. Always do the math - long barters almost always work out in your overall benefit in the long run once you have a good baseline diplomatic standing with the faction youre trading with. You may have to change what it is you trade with them as they have specific deficits and surpluses at different times just as you do, but what's important is youre trading the less for more, and what you're trading for will have great value to another.

You can in fact trade with one faction for what you need to trade with another. Just be sure to keep track of how many turns you have a traded resource for, so you don't go into deficit if a trade ends a turn before its dependent trade. Eg if I trade 20 stone for 80 bronze for 10 turns, and the next turn trade 80 bronze for 120 stone, I should make that second trade last for 9 turns so I don't have to lose 80 bronze for 1 (or more) turn(s). In some cases I'd even be able to up my stone per turn to 130-132 with only 9 turns (although sometimes less turns = diminishing return. Ofc sometimes the opposite, more turns = diminishing return)

Keep in mind the green left over is not necessarily lost profit - it is also the diplomatic change per turn you will have with that faction if the deal goes through. Over time this leads to more favorable (well, less unfavorable) deals. Further testing in my part to know how permanent or temporary that relationship boost is. Someone else prolly knows

You can take extra stone and gold, for example, maybe 50 of one and 20 of the other, and get 600 fpt in return. If you know the right factions. This way you can, say, subsidize an army that is causing a deficit by reducing the deficit 600 fpt meaning you have possibly many more turns before you hit 0 and attrition starts some time later.

tl;dr for trade is find that perfect balance between trading for what you want and trading for what will get you what you want

6. Specialized provinces- more of an expansion on an earlier point - when you can, building support buildings to supplement food growing provinces. Also possible with bronze or any resource you need. Best to be bordered by utilitarian, specialized mid-to-high-tier military provinces on the extremes of your empire, or with defensive fortifications working in tandem with food gathering efforts.

Alternatively, a central power play style might have a strong military province geared towards recruitment with exterior provinces geared towards defense and resource collection. Downside would be fpt/u required to move army from center to frontier. As such I still recommend to combine this method with frontier recruitment zones w/ rank buffs for recruiting the highest tier troops you want at the last moment/to increase # of recruiting regions so # of turns recruiting doesn't increase costs at a fractionally exponential rate.

Having recruitment provinces with rank buffs (and generals with rank buffs*) means the urge to keep a standing army is less strong, since part of the urge to play with a single army is to get its rank up & thereby increase its staying power. Just like getting powerful generic generals, powerful troops on recruitment means fielding an army doesn't have to be a long term commitment

outposts to temporarily reduce upkeep for big armies, and close distances faster meaning fewer turns between resource-gathering evens like battles. Building fortresses, defensive garrison/ambush-chance outposts, careful micromanagement of warrior's refuges*, religious bonuses if applicable. So many ways to strategize with outpost placement

Also a mention to city fortifications. Again, I'm pretty sure free garrison, no admin burden added, someone correct me if I'm wrong. In general, relegating non-upkeep troops to city and town defence where there's defender advantage instead of having to field equal defensive under a general is a gold resource saving strategy

7. Look at waste. For example, I love the +10 workforce edict. But it also takes food down 10% which means every turn I lose x amount of food time y amount of turns overall. Hell to the no when I have a standing army. Having well developed provinces definitely makes this easier since workforce becomes less important then.

2nd main source of waste might be too many idle generals. Look at provinces in your control with defensive armies. Could garrisons be strengthened in other ways? Like outlook posts, city fortifications, increasing city tier, etc. Increasing city tier makes a small, permanent admin burden but if it adds 2 higher tier units the admin score is usually mitigated right away by increased defense units. Not taking into account fortifications. The extra generals themselves contribute greatly to admin burden so if you insist on keeping the troops standing and accept the economic hit, cutting out on generals when they're unneeded is a great idea. Besides admin burden this leads to decreased fpt by cutting down on units eating with bronze spoons and wearing out the grain-straps in their sandals

Many other topics that could be classed "waste" are scattered throughout.

8. Generals: invest points in upkeep reduction. Synergize, aka if I war with 2 generals, bring one with reduced upkeep and and high replenishment (your main army), another with high movement and high upkeep reduction (your mosquito). Adopt this strategy to your needs (with your own code-names). Keep in mind getting worldwide general recruitment bonuses and stacking with in-province bonuses can start you off with some pretty damn strong generic generals, and your faction leader will often lead a very strong army, so whatever you put in there will be as permanent as that character's life.

9. Diplomatizing. Yeah, not a word. And yeah, goes hand in hand with trading above, which ultimately went into diplomacy in general. In this case though, I mean: using non-aggression pacts in your favor to sign food/bronze deals when you need to fund an army, sometimes saving them for the occasion. I mean starting a war with a lesser nation, seizing a province, knocking out a couple of their armies for loot, then forcing them to sign a peace deal with a large food per turn deal to me. i'll even make it a trade to wring some bronze out of them, too.

An important note: while getting food may be the obvious priority, note the point at which it starts really costing you a ton on the trade rable. Could you instead request other materials that could be in turn traded to another faction with less diminishing return? That allows you to squeeze out the extra fpt and bpt and even gpt that you may need and underlies much of the more basic food/bronze based advice where applicable above

NA pacts lock you in so you can't wage war. Breaking them causes penalties. The ai disregards them. Hence I focus on trade. Since it's NSA so to speak. Only NA with countries I have no interest in war with AND interest in better trade with. Or who I really need to leave me alone, and then as a means to an end, not the end itself (leading to increased relations hence less chance of conflict, not leading directly to no chance of conflict as the deal's name suggests, and would function in an honorable world.)

So diplomatizing is also about when and how not to use diplomacy. A lot of people pay like crazy for NA's when really they should be acquired, at best, with profit or incidentally with another deal when thee other 2 criteria are met.

10. Gold - just get a gold province. You can bs it ofc if you get random t5 or t6's early in, but I really always regret fielding them. I wind up with them through warriors refuge outposts. Trading for it is very possible, but value goes up as t5 and 6 go into play. Useful for certain purposes, and as general as a powerful trading token. Value jacks way up as game goes on, so play it wise with your gold. You are given many opportunities to squander it. And many traps are laid for you with it.

11. Warriors refuges... good for recruiting units without spending money, to be shuffled into fortresses immediately. Only used to store units in very contested regions. If a t5 or t6 (even t3 or t4 if extraneous) spawns I recommend just getting rid of it early game, or fortressing and using them for total war only. Seriously, they drain so much food and bronze and gold. After using lower tier refugee recruits. them to secure early provinces and recruit early game, I generally recommend only keeping them in the most attack-prone places and replacing with an outpost with better benefits for growth or trade or w/e

They can be toggled off, but again, their use is limited to a region...always keep in mind how many of your reinforcements will actually show to a battle. Lots to just know from experience in making these calculations. Autoresolve off can fill in a lot of the unknowns. Imo for defense the lookout outposts are better. They can be used to bait an ambush without a mosquito army, in addition to the 50% bonus to ambush - they also provide 3 (I'm pretty sure) upkeep-free defensive units at the first tier of unit worth-a-turd, t3. Not always the change to make - a refuge outpost can defend itself, after all, an admirable quality - or maybe a different outpost would suit the situation. How to use these to advantage is a whole other topic beyond these points

In short, when in doubt, better to avoid using except for very specific situations. But I use them to sneak recruit early. Give 3 -5 turns for construction!

12. Permanent resource bonuses from technology. Note many buildings and techs give different food/bronze based on Pillars, so expect fluctuation apart from your specific management of your empire! Sometimes a change can be in your favor, sometimes to your disadvantage. When in doubt, solid 10% bonuses and the like are more reliable, if you expect the law of averages to come like some sort of karmic wrecking ball and destroy your budget.

I'm also just adding this since it's important, but it was pointed out by Shogun below: upkeep reducing technologies can contribute greatly.

13. Recruitment slots and further general optimizationSome buildings and general traits can add recruitment slots thereby decreasing number of turns recruiting and paying upkeep. Also, general can be specialized besides their upkeep/replenish/move with traits that reduce recruitment, reduce upkeep, etc and those can be paired with specialized generals etc., really a random note but applies to some above

14. When in doubt throw your ramshackle army into the meat grinder to be erased. Be defeated in a blaze of glory. (At your own risk. Extra caution with important characters) Losing experiences are okay and I've had several and often reload some campaigns to re-strategize. But especially if you like playing no-load-backs, learning to take the L will mean when you get a winning save going, you really got it. Also, a lot of the time loss of army might seem like loss of campaign. But I'll just say, a lot of interesting things can happen if you recuperate from seeming military and political disasters. Really, just added this so there'd be 14 instead of 13. But seriously. I say embrace getting erased if it happens in pursuit of forming the good playing habits that make your turns relatively quick but because they're well planned & second nature, not chores - input with pleasantly chaotic but somewhat predictable output. The Holy RNG.

in conclusion the methods above are some small ways to increase your food (and really all types) of income you'll need to fund armies. Sorry for the disorganization, and certainly many could add more. I highly recommend playing 25-40 turns with a "tester" campaign trying to do something *too* well, be it diplomacy, food management, or even just building an ungodly army and focusing down a strategic/tactical play style. Then easing off when you've gotten the rhythm of it on you passion campaigns. This recommendation applies even to vets of other total wars getting used to new mechanics

[Shogun]

thats a great total guide, but its real simple, aim for 4 region provinces, it isnt needed, but theres a building that gives -10% upkeep and you can build it in every region and every faction has it, so -40% upkeep, -20% from the generals skill tree, the tech tree -20%, thats -80% upkeep which is more than enough but you can get to -100% with various other ways, then you can have as many expensive armies you want, with the best units, with free upkeep (unless invading)

[Johnny 5]

I was just considering this. Playing on hard as Ithaca. Pylos attacked me turn like 8. They are fielding a 20 stack, 17 stack and a 6 stack.....

[Many-Named]

Originally posted by NoSoyLeón:

As others say, campaign settings ->upkeep.

If you want to play your way out of it:
snipped

Honestly you should turn this into a guide, I am saying this unironically.

[Michael_v_Anken]

Originally posted by Emperor:

Upkeep is so freaking high, I m strength Rank 1, but I cant even field enough armies to protect my lands. Meanwhile smaller factions can field several full stacks. Playing as Ramses.

I know they are higher than in previous games of this series.

You could go the easy way and use a trainer or you could change some db datas. It is easy and take not more than 1h. In the end I redused the costs by 90%. So it is possible to pay over 30 armies. ;)

[Lord Antony]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3304903556

I use this mod. It reduces upkeep to adequate level.

[NoSoyLeón]

Originally posted by Johnny 5:

I was just considering this. Playing on hard as Ithaca. Pylos attacked me turn like 8. They are fielding a 20 stack, 17 stack and a 6 stack.....

Ambush ambush ambush. Early game Ithaca, it pays to play like Odysseus. Maybe with 2 3/4 stacks, or one good 3/4 stack. Building up a good garrison can mean the ability to lose an army but not the war. Early game Ithaca is a good crash course, so tempting to play, but a potentially tough start

[Johnny 5]

I managed it in the end. Ambush works differently to other Warhammer games. Yeah you ambush you win. Still that corner is a long long way from the fun fights