I have faith now

[Crafty]

-The important thing to me is having the tighter maps but also making each time feel like it's telling a story and have it feel different each time. So random zombie encounters, random puzzles, random day/night/dusk, random obstacle placement. If you nail all this and expand on it you will find your success.

-No one wanted open world. It's not what worked in the first game. Some opens areas is fine, but wall-to-wall of people and zombies trying to cover each other, manage stamina, supplies and whatnot. That is what it is about.

-Maybe do random "power outs" on some maps/rooms. Just pull the rug out from the players sometimes.

-Each venture should feel like a story.

-The Power Plant map should just be "scrapped for parts". Or overhaul it to be tighter like the original maps.

-The whole starting "everyone has to find each other and group up thing" isn't necessary at all. Only good it did to split people enough so they could grab starting gear. It's supposed to be a co-op game. If people are lost, die and don't group up, the gameplay sucks.

On the contrary. If you're able to somehow split the players up during a venture. Now that would be interesting but hard to pull off.

-Build randomized systems with each map that tells a story

-Characters and starting kits and stat padding doesn't belong here. If you go the route of 'Back 4 Blood' you will only find failure. You want emergent gameplay, scavenging and whatnot, not pre-stat kits.

-Example. Left 4 Dead had zero pre-stat anything. Everything was emergent within each entry to the campaign. While 'Back 4 Blood' tried to do all these terrible stat padding "RPG" systems and went for "vertical progression". It's terrible and missing the point of why L4D worked so well.

-Give the players memories not increased stats that go nowhere but force sponge enemies and inflated harder difficulties.

-Don't do a "ARPG".

-If you make everything as emergent as possible, while increasing the quality of random encounters and whatnot. Even compared to Left 4 Dead with the AI director that game had, you will blow peoples minds.

-Do a "Skeleton Closet" random encounter system. A random encounter system for 1-off stuff. Like, zombies falling from a "great height", like off of a building near the players. Zombies crawling out from under a buss or vehicle. Anything like that which can be generalized and fit into a broad randomized system and sprinkled throughout each map.

-Randomized puzzles. Not just location based item hunt, but totally different puzzles on the same map so the players are always guessing.

-Another random system would be an "ambient backdrop" one. Where you have random explosions way off in the background. A random chopper flying over head. A random fighter jet crashing. Stuff like that, so the map/world feels like it's just falling apart.

-So random systems on top of random systems to make each venture feel like a story is unfolding.

-Ultimately, I think having fewer maps that are just busting with story telling elements would be a blast.

[DOOMLAD9000]

Originally posted by Crafty:

-The important thing to me is having the tighter maps but also making each time feel like it's telling a story and have it feel different each time. So random zombie encounters, random puzzles, random day/night/dusk, random obstacle placement. If you nail all this and expand on it you will find your success.

-No one wanted open world. It's not what worked in the first game. Some opens areas is fine, but wall-to-wall of people and zombies trying to cover each other, manage stamina, supplies and whatnot. That is what it is about.

-Maybe do random "power outs" on some maps/rooms. Just pull the rug out from the players sometimes.

-Each venture should feel like a story.

-The Power Plant map should just be "scrapped for parts". Or overhaul it to be tighter like the original maps.

-The whole starting "everyone has to find each other and group up thing" isn't necessary at all. Only good it did to split people enough so they could grab starting gear. It's supposed to be a co-op game. If people are lost, die and don't group up, the gameplay sucks.

On the contrary. If you're able to somehow split the players up during a venture. Now that would be interesting but hard to pull off.

-Build randomized systems with each map that tells a story

-Characters and starting kits and stat padding doesn't belong here. If you go the route of 'Back 4 Blood' you will only find failure. You want emergent gameplay, scavenging and whatnot, not pre-stat kits.

-Example. Left 4 Dead had zero pre-stat anything. Everything was emergent within each entry to the campaign. While 'Back 4 Blood' tried to do all these terrible stat padding "RPG" systems and went for "vertical progression". It's terrible and missing the point of why L4D worked so well.

-Give the players memories not increased stats that go nowhere but force sponge enemies and inflated harder difficulties.

-Don't do a "ARPG".

-If you make everything as emergent as possible, while increasing the quality of random encounters and whatnot. Even compared to Left 4 Dead with the AI director that game had, you will blow peoples minds.

-Do a "Skeleton Closet" random encounter system. A random encounter system for 1-off stuff. Like, zombies falling from a "great height", like off of a building near the players. Zombies crawling out from under a buss or vehicle. Anything like that which can be generalized and fit into a broad randomized system and sprinkled throughout each map.

-Randomized puzzles. Not just location based item hunt, but totally different puzzles on the same map so the players are always guessing.

-Another random system would be an "ambient backdrop" one. Where you have random explosions way off in the background. A random chopper flying over head. A random fighter jet crashing. Stuff like that, so the map/world feels like it's just falling apart.

-So random systems on top of random systems to make each venture feel like a story is unfolding.

-Ultimately, I think having fewer maps that are just busting with story telling elements would be a blast.

I'm glad you have faith but I do disagree with what your're asking. Smaller maps are cool but it should not be the standard. Powerplant was a blast, i'm sure Pottsville will be too. There's no reason to just have smaller maps or make Powerplant smaller, variety is needed. The loadouts and starting alone are gameplay staples and as such are staying. Starting alone helps with the tension/pacing, and loadouts are excellent for replayability. Also there already are objective's where players would do well to split up, like the 3 building repair scenario on Powerplant. In fact, some of what your asking are already in the game, like ambiance and skeleton closet. Have you played the game? And if so when's the last time you played?

[Crafty]

Originally posted by DOOMLAD9000:

I'm glad you have faith but I do disagree with what your're asking. Smaller maps are cool but it should not be the standard. Powerplant was a blast, i'm sure Pottsville will be too. There's no reason to just have smaller maps or make Powerplant smaller, variety is needed. The loadouts and starting alone are gameplay staples and as such are staying. Starting alone helps with the tension/pacing, and loadouts are excellent for replayability. Also there already are objective's where players would do well to split up, like the 3 building repair scenario on Powerplant. In fact, some of what your asking are already in the game, like ambiance and skeleton closet. Have you played the game? And if so when's the last time you played?

I mean, more so take what worked from the first game and expand on it. The first game had some pretty big maps that took a while to finish. I'm talking more the layout too. The "paths" are too wide which is why the spawn system feels like trash.

So I don't necessarily mean "smaller" just tighter. Narrow/dense and then wide.

Any of the wide/open maps in NMRIH1 are the least played. The formula/vibe of the game goes out the window on those maps. The most played maps are narrow/dense with a few open areas sprinkled throughout.

Imo, you want to go narrow/dense, then give players breathing room with open areas and then go back to narrow. Again, this formula is in the first game. With the survives trying to stay near each other and watch each others back from runners and whatnot.

Player separation should be punished, at least a little bit. Maybe not do "special zombies and pinning", but I feel like they could code in a director AI enough to punish players from taking off on each other a little bit.

Tbh, the first game/engine and the limitations forced a better formula on the devs. They literally couldn't do huge open areas. They had to be creative.

Also my argument is that games like L4D and NMRIH1 are just long enough that you can complete a map or campaign in a session and log off. It doesn't drag on and on. You can hop on the game, play a map or two and get off and feel satisfied.

Also, the whole open world, "we gotta find each other" aspect is just pointless. All of these decisions that deviate away from the original formula are why the game tanked on release.

[DOOMLAD9000]

Originally posted by Crafty:

Originally posted by DOOMLAD9000:

I'm glad you have faith but I do disagree with what your're asking. Smaller maps are cool but it should not be the standard. Powerplant was a blast, i'm sure Pottsville will be too. There's no reason to just have smaller maps or make Powerplant smaller, variety is needed. The loadouts and starting alone are gameplay staples and as such are staying. Starting alone helps with the tension/pacing, and loadouts are excellent for replayability. Also there already are objective's where players would do well to split up, like the 3 building repair scenario on Powerplant. In fact, some of what your asking are already in the game, like ambiance and skeleton closet. Have you played the game? And if so when's the last time you played?

I mean, more so take what worked from the first game and expand on it. The first game had some pretty big maps that took a while to finish. I'm talking more the layout too. The "paths" are too wide which is why the spawn system feels like trash.

So I don't necessarily mean "smaller" just tighter. Narrow/dense and then wide.

Any of the wide/open maps in NMRIH1 are the least played. The formula/vibe of the game goes out the window on those maps. The most played maps are narrow/dense with a few open areas sprinkled throughout.

Imo, you want to go narrow/dense, then give players breathing room with open areas and then go back to narrow. Again, this formula is in the first game. With the survives trying to stay near each other and watch each others back from runners and whatnot.

Player separation should be punished, at least a little bit. Maybe not do "special zombies and pinning", but I feel like they could code in a director AI enough to punish players from taking off on each other a little bit.

Tbh, the first game/engine and the limitations forced a better formula on the devs. They literally couldn't do huge open areas. They had to be creative.

Also my argument is that games like L4D and NMRIH1 are just long enough that you can complete a map or campaign in a session and log off. It doesn't drag on and on. You can hop on the game, play a map or two and get off and feel satisfied.

Also, the whole open world, "we gotta find each other" aspect is just pointless. All of these decisions that deviate away from the original formula are why the game tanked on release.

What do you mean there weren't any "wide open" maps in nmrih1. The closest I can think of is either Cleopas, Suzhou, or Zephyr. But Cleopas and Suzhou are far from being unplayed and Zephyr is only open in the last 1/3 of the map.

"Imo, you want to go narrow/dense, then give players breathing room with open areas and then go back to narrow."
And this is still the formula now. The open areas do give you breathing room, but then you HAVE to go inside a POI to do an obj.

And separation is punished wdym? The first 1/3 of the game is fighting alone and searching for some one to watch your six while you get supplies. You could possibly even still be alone for the next 2/3 of the game where people have grouped up and are attempting to stack up supplies for the plant. But if you don't fight with your team for the last 3/3 you will die. Don't help at the plant? wanted to go off on your own? Your dead. And that's not mentioning how easily you could die alone before hand. The game hinges it's difficulty on more than one person, you are constantly fighting for your life if your alone.

"Also my argument is that games like L4D and NMRIH1 are just long enough that you can complete a map or campaign in a session and log off. It doesn't drag on and on. You can hop on the game, play a map or two and get off and feel satisfied."
Yes and that is exactly how the second game works too. Most nmrih maps people play are the long and difficult ones, Cleopas, Anxiety, Shoreline, Suzhou, Rockpit. These games can easily last 30 - hour depending on your teams skill. The same is true for nmrih2. Power plant can be done at the least 35-45 minutes if your good, close to an hour or more if your bad. (I'm talking mostly about pubs, set teams could probably do it even faster for both games).

"Also, the whole open world, "we gotta find each other" aspect is just pointless. All of these decisions that deviate away from the original formula are why the game tanked on release."
The reason the game tanked on launch is because it was unplayable. Bug ridden, server crashes, unreasonable lag, the game was unplayable at launch. These decisions didn't deviate from the formula. You actually appreciate teamwork now because you can no longer survive effectively alone. The open world map helps with this, you no longer get the luxury of a starting with your team, you have to earn it. I'm going to ask the question again because I'm not sure, have you actually played the game before? I only ask because the things you say are things you would only say if you haven't played the game.

[Crafty]

Originally posted by DOOMLAD9000:

What do you mean there weren't any "wide open" maps in nmrih1. The closest I can think of is either Cleopas, Suzhou, or Zephyr. But Cleopas and Suzhou are far from being unplayed and Zephyr is only open in the last 1/3 of the map.

"Imo, you want to go narrow/dense, then give players breathing room with open areas and then go back to narrow."
And this is still the formula now. The open areas do give you breathing room, but then you HAVE to go inside a POI to do an obj.

And separation is punished wdym? The first 1/3 of the game is fighting alone and searching for some one to watch your six while you get supplies. You could possibly even still be alone for the next 2/3 of the game where people have grouped up and are attempting to stack up supplies for the plant. But if you don't fight with your team for the last 3/3 you will die. Don't help at the plant? wanted to go off on your own? Your dead. And that's not mentioning how easily you could die alone before hand. The game hinges it's difficulty on more than one person, you are constantly fighting for your life if your alone.

"Also my argument is that games like L4D and NMRIH1 are just long enough that you can complete a map or campaign in a session and log off. It doesn't drag on and on. You can hop on the game, play a map or two and get off and feel satisfied."
Yes and that is exactly how the second game works too. Most nmrih maps people play are the long and difficult ones, Cleopas, Anxiety, Shoreline, Suzhou, Rockpit. These games can easily last 30 - hour depending on your teams skill. The same is true for nmrih2. Power plant can be done at the least 35-45 minutes if your good, close to an hour or more if your bad. (I'm talking mostly about pubs, set teams could probably do it even faster for both games).

"Also, the whole open world, "we gotta find each other" aspect is just pointless. All of these decisions that deviate away from the original formula are why the game tanked on release."
The reason the game tanked on launch is because it was unplayable. Bug ridden, server crashes, unreasonable lag, the game was unplayable at launch. These decisions didn't deviate from the formula. You actually appreciate teamwork now because you can no longer survive effectively alone. The open world map helps with this, you no longer get the luxury of a starting with your team, you have to earn it. I'm going to ask the question again because I'm not sure, have you actually played the game before? I only ask because the things you say are things you would only say if you haven't played the game.

You're kinda misunderstanding what I mean. The first game has very tight areas, sometimes you're literally fighting to even get out of a doorway with several people all working the doorway. Then it might open up a little but people are squeezing through hordes of zombies while carefully choosing when to waste stamina and attack, or keep running past zombies.

Like Chinatown is a good example. It's wall to wall zombies, packed with vehicles and whatnot. Compare this with Powerplanet which feels like the widest areas from the first game all over. Which is why I think the zombies and spawn system takes a huge hit.

While wide open areas feels like you're catching a break, other than runners coming after you.

This kind of "squeezing" and running past zombies trying to find/work the objective is the bases for the first game. It's tense because even a single bite can mean being infected.

And no, the first game is not fighting alone for very long. Only some maps have you split at the start. Not sure what you're talking about. You can start in a building alone, but you're soon together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joy0-pHQgmY

Map is just too wide open. It's open with a few zombies here and there. Everyone is sprinting around like it's "COD" (maybe too extreme example). Just not the same vibe at all. Unless you have runners all over the place, the wide open areas ought to mean "hooray we can breath a little". That is what it feels like in the first game.

Also performance takes a huge hit. Massive ass map and the graphics are sacrificed all over the place. You could take some of the larger maps from the first game, expand a bit, and randomize and add a lot higher fidelity close range. This is where the UE5 engine would shine imo.

I also believe doing huge maps with different spawns will lead to the map having zero "character". While the first game each map has its own unqiue character to it. I know when I'm playing FEMA versus playing Chinatown or Broadway. They all have their own character.

While the design shift to making a bigger map means you have a huge same-ish map. Boring.

UE imo, is horrible at doing anything depending on CPU. Not sure why you would even attempt to do a huge open map while also trying to have as many zombies as you can.

I'm not saying they should do the same exact maps 1:1 as the first game, but this gameplay is literally not what anyone expected. Expand on the production value compared to the first, clean up the jank. Add more ambitious maps than the first game.

The wall to wall of zombies that you're squeezing to get past is all basically gone in 2. Completely missed the mark.

Just not good shot-calling from the top down on this project going into it.

Bugs in a early access game doesn't necessarily mean people won't put up with them. If the formula itself is fun, people will see past the issues until they're fixed. The formula itself isn't compelling enough in 2. (yet).

Again, I still have faith that they'll turn it around.

[limierr]

Personnaly only thing i would like to see :
1) Remove infinite spawn or split them in system of periodic wave which become harder. It just makes the game ridiculous for two main reason
a) if you are in a team, a guy can take most of the "aggro" and create mostly a safe spot.
b) if you are in solo, you just waste more time.

2) Item you collect during the trial should either be accessible or should be able to convert in point.

3) Have a ping indicator before join a server or have the ability to add yourself a limit : i don't mind to have to wait longer if that mean i have a stable servers.

4) Add compatibility for azerty keyboard or fix the bug for some touch who are not recognize. So far i am forced to play in qwerty and writte in qwerty.

5) Fix characters :
a) sometimes you character can change during the game
b) add some variety in character or add maybe "special" character that you can "buy". Those character could have either one extra items at start or a special perk.

6) Add a system of retirement for characters similar to hunt showdown : the system could be use to keep items you buy, receive extra xp and money

7) Fix performance : i don't know if it is only on my side. I tend to have lower fps when i am alone than when i am with others players (which didn't make sense in my opinion). It remains playable (around 65fps to 30 fps).

8) As the game will get more player, add more gamestyle : similar to the first version of the game : system of zone defense, ....

[UnsichtbareHand]

Fix performance and make so playing solo not weasting your Charatar and time and new map

[DOOMLAD9000]

Originally posted by Crafty:

Originally posted by DOOMLAD9000:

What do you mean there weren't any "wide open" maps in nmrih1. The closest I can think of is either Cleopas, Suzhou, or Zephyr. But Cleopas and Suzhou are far from being unplayed and Zephyr is only open in the last 1/3 of the map.

"Imo, you want to go narrow/dense, then give players breathing room with open areas and then go back to narrow."
And this is still the formula now. The open areas do give you breathing room, but then you HAVE to go inside a POI to do an obj.

And separation is punished wdym? The first 1/3 of the game is fighting alone and searching for some one to watch your six while you get supplies. You could possibly even still be alone for the next 2/3 of the game where people have grouped up and are attempting to stack up supplies for the plant. But if you don't fight with your team for the last 3/3 you will die. Don't help at the plant? wanted to go off on your own? Your dead. And that's not mentioning how easily you could die alone before hand. The game hinges it's difficulty on more than one person, you are constantly fighting for your life if your alone.

"Also my argument is that games like L4D and NMRIH1 are just long enough that you can complete a map or campaign in a session and log off. It doesn't drag on and on. You can hop on the game, play a map or two and get off and feel satisfied."
Yes and that is exactly how the second game works too. Most nmrih maps people play are the long and difficult ones, Cleopas, Anxiety, Shoreline, Suzhou, Rockpit. These games can easily last 30 - hour depending on your teams skill. The same is true for nmrih2. Power plant can be done at the least 35-45 minutes if your good, close to an hour or more if your bad. (I'm talking mostly about pubs, set teams could probably do it even faster for both games).

"Also, the whole open world, "we gotta find each other" aspect is just pointless. All of these decisions that deviate away from the original formula are why the game tanked on release."
The reason the game tanked on launch is because it was unplayable. Bug ridden, server crashes, unreasonable lag, the game was unplayable at launch. These decisions didn't deviate from the formula. You actually appreciate teamwork now because you can no longer survive effectively alone. The open world map helps with this, you no longer get the luxury of a starting with your team, you have to earn it. I'm going to ask the question again because I'm not sure, have you actually played the game before? I only ask because the things you say are things you would only say if you haven't played the game.

You're kinda misunderstanding what I mean. The first game has very tight areas, sometimes you're literally fighting to even get out of a doorway with several people all working the doorway. Then it might open up a little but people are squeezing through hordes of zombies while carefully choosing when to waste stamina and attack, or keep running past zombies.

Like Chinatown is a good example. It's wall to wall zombies, packed with vehicles and whatnot. Compare this with Powerplanet which feels like the widest areas from the first game all over. Which is why I think the zombies and spawn system takes a huge hit.

While wide open areas feels like you're catching a break, other than runners coming after you.

This kind of "squeezing" and running past zombies trying to find/work the objective is the bases for the first game. It's tense because even a single bite can mean being infected.

And no, the first game is not fighting alone for very long. Only some maps have you split at the start. Not sure what you're talking about. You can start in a building alone, but you're soon together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joy0-pHQgmY

Map is just too wide open. It's open with a few zombies here and there. Everyone is sprinting around like it's "COD" (maybe too extreme example). Just not the same vibe at all. Unless you have runners all over the place, the wide open areas ought to mean "hooray we can breath a little". That is what it feels like in the first game.

Also performance takes a huge hit. Massive ass map and the graphics are sacrificed all over the place. You could take some of the larger maps from the first game, expand a bit, and randomize and add a lot higher fidelity close range. This is where the UE5 engine would shine imo.

I also believe doing huge maps with different spawns will lead to the map having zero "character". While the first game each map has its own unqiue character to it. I know when I'm playing FEMA versus playing Chinatown or Broadway. They all have their own character.

While the design shift to making a bigger map means you have a huge same-ish map. Boring.

UE imo, is horrible at doing anything depending on CPU. Not sure why you would even attempt to do a huge open map while also trying to have as many zombies as you can.

I'm not saying they should do the same exact maps 1:1 as the first game, but this gameplay is literally not what anyone expected. Expand on the production value compared to the first, clean up the jank. Add more ambitious maps than the first game.

The wall to wall of zombies that you're squeezing to get past is all basically gone in 2. Completely missed the mark.

Just not good shot-calling from the top down on this project going into it.

Bugs in a early access game doesn't necessarily mean people won't put up with them. If the formula itself is fun, people will see past the issues until they're fixed. The formula itself isn't compelling enough in 2. (yet).

Again, I still have faith that they'll turn it around.

I believe I understand what your saying now. We are definitely getting more maps with denser environments, but we shouldn't downsize Powerplant to suit that need. Powerplant is the Broadway to nmrih2. The easy starter map. I think every map going forward will be nowhere near as easy as Powerplant, but I do still want some maps to be more open, for varieties sake. Not every map has to be a city block. Also I was talking about the second game, when I said "The first 1/3 of the game is fighting alone and searching for some one to watch your six while you get supplies."

[Stellifera]

I heard about the free weekend to try it out in the 17th. I’ll try it but the game itself still a long way to go after the launch disappointment tbh lol

The first game is filled with griefers and all and not sure what Tb or whoever is in charge for the first game is doing I am pretty disappointed rn with that :v but nonetheless I’ll give this “sequel” a try when it releases its update.

[droggen]

Originally posted by Stellifera:

I heard about the free weekend to try it out in the 17th. I’ll try it but the game itself still a long way to go after the launch disappointment tbh lol

The first game is filled with griefers and all and not sure what Tb or whoever is in charge for the first game is doing I am pretty disappointed rn with that :v but nonetheless I’ll give this “sequel” a try when it releases its update.

Co-op games general rule. Always expect trolls.

[Stellifera]

Originally posted by droggen:

Originally posted by Stellifera:

I heard about the free weekend to try it out in the 17th. I’ll try it but the game itself still a long way to go after the launch disappointment tbh lol

The first game is filled with griefers and all and not sure what Tb or whoever is in charge for the first game is doing I am pretty disappointed rn with that :v but nonetheless I’ll give this “sequel” a try when it releases its update.

Co-op games general rule. Always expect trolls.

I know. Usually me and a group of friends deal with them with trolling them back and all.

The particular thing with the scenario going on with the first game is that server browser is small, barely any mods/admins, and a particular griefing group is hopping on and objective locking games. (One of the griefers also uses aimbot and the others have soft keys alike to hold games hostage with certain key components to progress maps)

Right now the game is unplayable.

[droggen]

Originally posted by Stellifera:

Originally posted by droggen:

Co-op games general rule. Always expect trolls.

I know. Usually me and a group of friends deal with them with trolling them back and all.

The particular thing with the scenario going on with the first game is that server browser is small, barely any mods/admins, and a particular griefing group is hopping on and objective locking games. (One of the griefers also uses aimbot and the others have soft keys alike to hold games hostage with certain key components to progress maps)

Right now the game is unplayable.

That sucks game is great, I stopped playing when unlimited ammo/lives servers became the norm, Hate to hear the community is having issues like this.