Cloud vs OG (end game spoilers)

[Arcvox]

Compared to the OG, does anyone else find Cloud so much harder to read in the remakes? Without going into too much detail regarding the story, I personally found the whole added narrative on top of the baseline story to be pretty confusing at the best of times, and I actually found it overall detracts from a fairly well rounded story, unfortunately. I’m even more a little lost with Cloud.

In the OG, Cloud is cold and aloof, but after the first bombing mission he’s actually pretty chill and makes jokes sometimes. But in the remake, he’s just so vacant almost all the time. Also, his outbursts are waaaay worse in different ways. I get that they’re trying to hammer home the whole ‘There are multiple people inside me, and I don’t know where they end and I begin’ is totally fair enough and well described, but especially towards the end of Rebirth this is so tripled down on that I literally cannot read Cloud and actually have no idea who he is at all by the end.

I think this is actually kind of frustrating; in the OG, since he’s still able to joke and be chill, it makes sense that the rest of the group are forgiving with his episodes. But in the remakes, I felt that Cloud is so aloof, without much else depth other than divulging some of his feelings occasionally it would make those episodes more of an issue. It kind of makes it less believable that the rest of the crew are fine when he’s tried to kill Barret as well as Tifa. Only once I think was Cloud pulled aside to be told ‘Get your sh*t together man’, with the majority of his issues brushed aside without even a mention.

Idk, maybe the multiverse stuff gives the player way too much to think about that it pulls away from the building tension of Clouds psyche. Or maybe it’s the fact that Sephiroth is much more prominent in the remakes so it’s kind of frustrating that since we’ve defeated him multiple times already despite still ‘being under his control’ it creates a bit of a jarring contrast.

I did enjoy Rebirth but honestly all the new stuff just feels like it takes away from a solid original story, aside from the busywork content that feels like it’s there to simply pad out the game. The remakes shines the most when they focus on the character development, and yet Clouds was so much more incoherent this time around - does anyone else feel the same?

[Eastgrove]

What's even more baffling is that they pretty much erased all the problems the other characters had. In the OG, everyone had issues, except Cloud, so it made sense to appoint him as leader. It was quite the twist that he had the worst problem of all, and left the party and the player confronted with severe doubts.

Cloud's just so miserable and lonely in Remake and Rebirth. And yet there's no reason to actually sympathize with him.

[Fitzy]

For some reason even though its been made obvious since chapter 2 of Remake people still haven't caught on that this is not the original story and doesn't change the original story and because they refuse to accept that, they are leaving themselves extremely disappointed because they totally disregard the new story that is going on as an actual story, they think its "changes to the og" it's not.

They're playing the game thinking they know what is going on and being upset when they don't and disregarding all the parts of the new story so no wonder no one knows.

[Eastgrove]

Originally posted by Fitzy:

For some reason even though its been made obvious since chapter 2 of Remake people still haven't caught on that this is not the original story and doesn't change the original story and because they refuse to accept that, they are leaving themselves extremely disappointed because they totally disregard the new story that is going on as an actual story, they think its "changes to the og" it's not.

They're playing the game thinking they know what is going on and being upset when they don't and disregarding all the parts of the new story so no wonder no one knows.

It plunders the OG with abandon, while not setting up anything other than 'Cloud is cray cray". In a vacuum, it's completely wretched. No one is under going any semblance of a character arc, aside from being glad they aren't Cloud.

[Tiberius]

beside "let's mosey", what funny lines did cloud actually say in og ff7? Even that famous line was funny mainly because of cid's reaction to it

[goodbye_bonito]

After initial bombing mission and further events Cloud did start joking and act more open to the party. You must be blind to not see change in his character.

[Arcvox]

Originally posted by Fitzy:

For some reason even though its been made obvious since chapter 2 of Remake people still haven't caught on that this is not the original story and doesn't change the original story and because they refuse to accept that, they are leaving themselves extremely disappointed because they totally disregard the new story that is going on as an actual story, they think its "changes to the og" it's not.

They're playing the game thinking they know what is going on and being upset when they don't and disregarding all the parts of the new story so no wonder no one knows.

The story is fine if not convoluted, but ultimately aren't these meant to be the same characters therefore the same Cloud though? But he's just really difficult to read especially in the last 30 mins of the game.

It's hard to keep in mind Sephiroth is controlling him, yet Cloud at this point in the remake has defeated Sephiroth 3 times. Whether it's happening in his mind or not, to me that indicates that Sephiroths control isn't exactly consistent. Idk, just found the whole thing a bit up and down. And to top it off, now he's seeing Aeriths ghost lol!

[Arcvox]

Originally posted by goodbye_bonito:

After initial bombing mission and further events Cloud did start joking and act more open to the party. You must be blind to not see change in his character.

Without trying to be offensive (it's unfortunately the best way to describe him), I found Clouds behaviour way more autistic and socially awkward in the remakes, whereas in the OG he's this cool and sometimes even quippy hero type generally. Don't get me wrong, he's SOMETIMES like that in the remake, but certainly not for the most part.

Maybe its just the difficulty in translating textual writing to voice acted scenes.

[Valdo82]

Originally posted by Arcvox:

Originally posted by goodbye_bonito:

After initial bombing mission and further events Cloud did start joking and act more open to the party. You must be blind to not see change in his character.

Without trying to be offensive (it's unfortunately the best way to describe him), I found Clouds behaviour way more autistic and socially awkward in the remakes, whereas in the OG he's this cool and sometimes even quippy hero type generally. Don't get me wrong, he's SOMETIMES like that in the remake, but certainly not for the most part.

Maybe its just the difficulty in translating textual writing to voice acted scenes.

This is also a matter of perception. You were way much younger when you played the og (guess) and you had way less knowledge of the world he is in (guess). It is like rewatching TV Show, you interpret your actual sourroundings and knowledge in what you see.

This is how karthasis works.

Plus this time around the game can be much more nuanced, for example the gold saucer opening scene, where you see his deamenor changed from stoic to actually enjoying it.

[techwolves]

Idk what game you played 🤷‍♂️but clearly not rebirth second end of the gold saucer if tifas friendship is higher the date goes really well and I believe if I recall they kissed or wanted to

[Arcvox]

Originally posted by Valdo82:

Originally posted by Arcvox:

Without trying to be offensive (it's unfortunately the best way to describe him), I found Clouds behaviour way more autistic and socially awkward in the remakes, whereas in the OG he's this cool and sometimes even quippy hero type generally. Don't get me wrong, he's SOMETIMES like that in the remake, but certainly not for the most part.

Maybe its just the difficulty in translating textual writing to voice acted scenes.

This is also a matter of perception. You were way much younger when you played the og (guess) and you had way less knowledge of the world he is in (guess). It is like rewatching TV Show, you interpret your actual sourroundings and knowledge in what you see.

This is how karthasis works.

Plus this time around the game can be much more nuanced, for example the gold saucer opening scene, where you see his deamenor changed from stoic to actually enjoying it.

Fair point, and you were right on both counts. FF7 was the first game I ever played that had mature themes in its story but obviously a lot of time has passed since then.

My biggest gripe is Cloud fighting Sephiroth. It all culminates in the OG with a one on one fight between the two, I found it cathartic since his hold was completely gone and Cloud wastes him. To have that theme in the remake, fighting him early despite his control still clearly being in place does kind of take away from that, but I understand that's just my perception of it I suppose.

Originally posted by techwolves:

Idk what game you played 🤷‍♂️but clearly not rebirth second end of the gold saucer if tifas friendship is higher the date goes really well and I believe if I recall they kissed or wanted to

I dated Aerith in my playthrough, but kind of regretted it. Tifa kind of seems a better fit in the remakes, maybe it's because we see way more of Zack so it feels like her heart still belongs to him in a strange sense.

They do kiss btw, only in the romantic version when their affinity is at a certain level

[Weltall8000]

Cloud does joke and is playful sometimes. He also is very broken and has problems that manifest often. There is a lot going on with him.

The party is watching him spiral and is trying to help him. They sometimes try to snap him out of it. Other times they visibly are outwardly ignoring his behavior. They care about him, but also don't know exactly how to help him.

Sephiroth is clearly manipulating Cloud/the party. He got them to take out Whisper Harbinger in Remake and he has Cloud en route to bringing him the Black Materia at the end of Rebirth.

[Valdo82]

Originally posted by Arcvox:

Originally posted by Valdo82:

This is also a matter of perception. You were way much younger when you played the og (guess) and you had way less knowledge of the world he is in (guess). It is like rewatching TV Show, you interpret your actual sourroundings and knowledge in what you see.

This is how karthasis works.

Plus this time around the game can be much more nuanced, for example the gold saucer opening scene, where you see his deamenor changed from stoic to actually enjoying it.

Fair point, and you were right on both counts. FF7 was the first game I ever played that had mature themes in its story but obviously a lot of time has passed since then.

My biggest gripe is Cloud fighting Sephiroth. It all culminates in the OG with a one on one fight between the two, I found it cathartic since his hold was completely gone and Cloud wastes him. To have that theme in the remake, fighting him early despite his control still clearly being in place does kind of take away from that, but I understand that's just my perception of it I suppose.

You have a point. Do we fight sephiroth or just Jenova? FF7 was a game of smoke and mirros and also a technology marvel of its time. But compared to today's technology way less competent how they could communicate things. Just some few polygons and a big blue box, which left more room to interpretation on the plusside, but also hindered you with a lot subtleness on the other end. Facial Expressions, body language etc were barely visible, yet alone the amazing things we can do with our voice.

I agree though that we fight him way too much (Narrative), but both times he made an real good final boss (gameplay), so i hope they deliver just in part 3 that clears it up a bit. wasn't there something in the 'fever dream' sequence of Chapter 13 that showed us, he doesn't have fully control of cloud? This scene was a bit confusing for my small mind and way out of reach to fully grasp :D

[Arcvox]

Originally posted by Valdo82:

Originally posted by Arcvox:

Fair point, and you were right on both counts. FF7 was the first game I ever played that had mature themes in its story but obviously a lot of time has passed since then.

My biggest gripe is Cloud fighting Sephiroth. It all culminates in the OG with a one on one fight between the two, I found it cathartic since his hold was completely gone and Cloud wastes him. To have that theme in the remake, fighting him early despite his control still clearly being in place does kind of take away from that, but I understand that's just my perception of it I suppose.

You have a point. Do we fight sephiroth or just Jenova? FF7 was a game of smoke and mirros and also a technology marvel of its time. But compared to today's technology way less competent how they could communicate things. Just some few polygons and a big blue box, which left more room to interpretation on the plusside, but also hindered you with a lot subtleness on the other end. Facial Expressions, body language etc were barely visible, yet alone the amazing things we can do with our voice.

I agree though that we fight him way too much (Narrative), but both times he made an real good final boss (gameplay), so i hope they deliver just in part 3 that clears it up a bit. wasn't there something in the 'fever dream' sequence of Chapter 13 that showed us, he doesn't have fully control of cloud? This scene was a bit confusing for my small mind and way out of reach to fully grasp :D

I know dude, it's very hard to grasp indeed xD

So canonically, Sephiroth is in the life stream, but is conscious and fully in control of Jenova (his cells were in perfect harmony with Js in utero), hence his ability to incarnate in any of the degenerated SOLDIERs. Him being in the lifestream also allows him to manifest in them since they're showered in mako too. So maybe this makes a sort of double dip of his ability to appear to both the rest of the party, but also mentally in Cloud. I wonder if this is how Zack was able to fight with him at the end, since it's kind of hinted that the lifestream is the constant between these parallel universes? The ending is very confusing though. Maybe some of those fights took place in other realities considering there were several shown in the last chapter!

The action scenes, fighting Seph and Bizarro Seph between squads was absolutely bonkers though, I don't care if it's fan service but it was awesome :D

[Sevrojin]

Originally posted by Arcvox:

Originally posted by Valdo82:

You have a point. Do we fight sephiroth or just Jenova? FF7 was a game of smoke and mirros and also a technology marvel of its time. But compared to today's technology way less competent how they could communicate things. Just some few polygons and a big blue box, which left more room to interpretation on the plusside, but also hindered you with a lot subtleness on the other end. Facial Expressions, body language etc were barely visible, yet alone the amazing things we can do with our voice.

I agree though that we fight him way too much (Narrative), but both times he made an real good final boss (gameplay), so i hope they deliver just in part 3 that clears it up a bit. wasn't there something in the 'fever dream' sequence of Chapter 13 that showed us, he doesn't have fully control of cloud? This scene was a bit confusing for my small mind and way out of reach to fully grasp :D

I know dude, it's very hard to grasp indeed xD

So canonically, Sephiroth is in the life stream, but is conscious and fully in control of Jenova (his cells were in perfect harmony with Js in utero), hence his ability to incarnate in any of the degenerated SOLDIERs. Him being in the lifestream also allows him to manifest in them since they're showered in mako too. So maybe this makes a sort of double dip of his ability to appear to both the rest of the party, but also mentally in Cloud. I wonder if this is how Zack was able to fight with him at the end, since it's kind of hinted that the lifestream is the constant between these parallel universes? The ending is very confusing though. Maybe some of those fights took place in other realities considering there were several shown in the last chapter!

The action scenes, fighting Seph and Bizarro Seph between squads was absolutely bonkers though, I don't care if it's fan service but it was awesome :D

what essentially is happening from what i gather is..... they are pulling a ff14

there is multiple realities and sephiroth is trying to cause rejoining(reunions) so he can take over the true promised land "Gaia Prime" a version where all other gaia merge back into it.

ff14s ascians mirror what sepiroth is doing though their goal was the revival of their people sepiroths goal is to seemingly revive jenova on a "full" gaia

[Eastgrove]

I strongly suspect the reason puppet Cloud is stable is because the real Cloud consented to his creation in a faustian bargain with Sephiroth. Prior to being reunited with Tifa, Cloud could barely move or be moved by Sephiroth. This is because Cloud could resist the control to such a degree, demonstrating his strong will power.

Tifa appearing before him came as a surprise. Add the fact that she's in a battle for her life with Shinra, and Cloud obviously can't simply let things stand. So in exchange for her safety, he works with Sephiroth to create a persona that can fight for Tifa, but also one that it's easy for Sephiroth to manipulate.

It's a simple straight forward explanation that fits all the parties involved, as well as the sequence of events leading up to and after it. It's also in keeping with series themes and precedents set up to this point. Evil may corrupt, but it needs a willing host. Every man has their price and Tifa's life was Cloud's.

I have no idea what's going on with Remake Cloud. And I don't think I can be made to care. There's no fixing what's wrong with him. At least not one that would satisfy. There's no where and no one to draw strength from, whether it's internally or externally. The truth really boils down to the fact that he sucks.