Discipline Amulet needs text updated or support for Dragon clan

[Pola]

There is no mention to day/night affinity, just affinity. No UI warning or omission of the amulet for selection by the clan. It does not affect the Dragon rot affinity effect (such as buffing the effect by 2 additional rot negation).

Counts as a bug technically so posting here about it.

[JaGarLo]

What I'd do is to just remove Discipline from the Dragon Clan Heroes' loadout. Simply put, they can't benefit from it.

I also think that actually granting them an adapted effect of Discipline (supress up to 4 Rot points of disadvantage) is a bit too much, giving Corrupted Heroes from other clans no chance at all in battle.

[Pola]

Well they are meant to be strongly tied to the worm aren't they? You'd still have to have the players actually choose to take a rot path, which is usually optional afaik, most characters should be fine without pursuing it, or could avoid the dragon like other players avoid threats. I was actually surprised that a spirit walker had no instant death ability to corrupted heroes(I thought they did when I played a year or two back).

An alternative is just granting two die in rot battles?

You wouldn't remove the amulet, it'd be in a "disabled" state for UX. So the user isn't confused why the amulet is missing when they try to find it to use. It can just state not available/usable for the clan on hover.

[JaGarLo]

Originally posted by Pola:

An alternative is just granting two die in rot battles?

Well, that sounds alright to me, but maybe I'd change it to "+1 die if you outrot your opponent, and +1 extra if your opponent is Corrupted", so it's the Rot advantage and +1 from Discipline.

I must admit, I have no clue on how to make this work. I'm not really against the "4 Rot suppresion", but I always felt that Discipline is an amulet that gives you quite an advantage... 50% of the time. That wouldn't be the case for the Dragons, as they have no day or night affinity. I think there should be a condition to trigger the +2 extra suppression.

Originally posted by Pola:

You wouldn't remove the amulet, it'd be in a "disabled" state for UX. So the user isn't confused why the amulet is missing when they try to find it to use. It can just state not available/usable for the clan on hover.

That would be the best idea when it comes to user interface, truth be told.

[Pola]

Originally posted by JaGarLo:

That wouldn't be the case for the Dragons, as they have no day or night affinity. I think there should be a condition to trigger the +2 extra suppression.

How often is a dragon clan member to encounter an opponent with higher rot I guess? -4 rot dice gain to an opponent is fair despite being day/night. For the opponent to take advantage of it they'd need more 3 or more rot advantage over your dragon. So an opponent that's clearly playing rot path or is the king, where you are fighting with rot against your favor.

Gaining actual dice advantage seems less balanced, if you add the condition of rot or corrupted opponent, it gives them a further advantage in rot battles when on an offense playing a rot path to victory, since dice could be gained even when having a rot advantage.

Just boosting to -4 rot seems to make sense. It's only useful starting out against Banes between 3-4 rot(unless the Bane has gained some extra rot), and the king, with the potential that another player is playing rot more successfully and you have at least 3 rot for this to make any difference.

[JaGarLo]

Originally posted by Pola:

How often is a dragon clan member to encounter an opponent with higher rot I guess? -4 rot dice gain to an opponent is fair despite being day/night. For the opponent to take advantage of it they'd need more 3 or more rot advantage over your dragon. So an opponent that's clearly playing rot path or is the king, where you are fighting with rot against your favor.

Gaining actual dice advantage seems less balanced, if you add the condition of rot or corrupted opponent, it gives them a further advantage in rot battles when on an offense playing a rot path to victory, since dice could be gained even when having a rot advantage.

Just boosting to -4 rot seems to make sense. It's only useful starting out against Banes between 3-4 rot(unless the Bane has gained some extra rot), and the king, with the potential that another player is playing rot more successfully and you have at least 3 rot for this to make any difference.

You raise good points.

I'm somewhat convinced, but, I don't know... It still feels like taking away 4 dice is quite a lot. It's not like it's going to matter if we're talking about a 14-15 Rot Battle (you're still getting wacked, even removing 4 of your opponents' 15 bonus dice). But with more common values, it seems like you're always inmune (or extremely protected) from the only negative effect the Rot has to offer against the Dragons, which is getting outrotted (is that the word?) by your opponents.

However, at the end of day, I guess the +2 dice suppression is the best way to go. I mean, the Dragons are a Rot oriented anyway. It wouldn't be easy winning at their own game, lore-wise...

[Pola]

It doesn't take away that many dice guaranteed though. It prevents dice gain from the rot difference. eg 5 vs 9 rot, the player with 9 rot would gain 5 extra dice. I think I made a mistake earlier, and said it was the difference.

So boosting to -4 rot dice gain, means that you have at least 4 rot, and your opponent has more than that to claim your rot as their dice(you don't lose any actual dice, the opponent is getting a bonus in rot battle). It would neutralize gains Banes would get until you're corrupted. Although if you're going down the path of rot, you probably want banes to have more dice so that on death you gain rot(and at 4 rot, if both you and Bane die, you can jump to 6 rot).

The effect has no advantage when you're the rot leader in battle, since only you gain rot which happens anyway, the affinity only protects higher rot opponents from stealing some of your rot. Against the King on 1 HP, he can have 9 rot, and if you only had 8 rot, with the effect, he gains 4 dice instead of 8(6 technically since the affinity already provides 2 rot dice protection).

(probably should have read the rest of your comment, since I think you already understood all that well..)

Originally posted by JaGarLo:

But with more common values, it seems like you're always inmune (or extremely protected) from the only negative effect the Rot has to offer against the Dragons, which is getting outrotted (is that the word?) by your opponents.

Since the dragons are all about rot, I think it's understandable that with the amulet boost, that they'd be able to prevent even slightly higher rot opponents(who need to at least be corrupted for the full advantage to be useful) from gaining a notable rot advantage. They lack the dice bonus other clans get on day/night(which with amulet is +3 bonus die..), most players don't necessarily start off with rot path as their intended or only option to pursue, so it's not like they couldn't avoid the effect, making it only useful against banes until corruption, and then the king, otherwise pretty useless.

Probably would counter another dragon pursuing rot victory I guess? Unlike other clans, there is no bonus to perils either, so it's only advantageous when you've both amassed some rot and actually cross paths on the map to battle, the advantage is pretty much only useful at evening out the rot battle a bit more since no actual die are lost.

I'd rather some other gain personally, it's quite situational and with tradeoffs already compared to what other clans get, even if the amulet did an extra two rot die protection, probably better amulet choices to go with.

[Vondee]

the dragon clan -2 die affinity already disincentivizes other heroes in the lobby to go for rot as they're investing resources in gaining/spreading rot over other areas expecting an advantage in battle and the dragon clan affinity makes this mostly redundant. Increasing this further would not be good for the game. A -4 die rot affinity effect also has no effect on the bulk of heroes and usually the king as rot players are unlikely to attack the king while the king has more rot and the player has at least 4. The best thing IMO is to give each hero a day/night affinity of 0 like Griotte eg. Voldar, Nazar night, Agniya, Oxana day. This lets you pick up Discipline with its regular effect and creates diversity between the dragon clan if multiple heroes are running Discipline but have opposite day/night affinity.

[Pola]

You don't have to play for a rot victory with dragon clan, the affinity also prevents health loss from rot at dawn. The only discouragement it really has is not to attack a dragon clan member with the discipline amulet and expect to gain a notable die advantage if you have more rot than they do(mostly early on in corruption). So it'd be like fighting any other non-rot focused character, with a small chance you'd get some extra die later into the game, if you both pursue boosting the rot stat.

While it's unlikely to fight the king with lower rot, sometimes you can end up in those situations. I've been in the palace when the king has 5-6 rot or greater and I might have parity or 1 rot less. Sometimes I had the advantage but get killed before I can attack, and that offset happens by the time I get back in. So it can still be useful as a debuff when needed, there's other amulets that can be chosen if that's an undesirable effect.

The day/night mix can be a nice approach too I guess.

[Vondee]

You have to remember that dragon clan affinity is in place of regular affinity which is giving you 1 die in fights and both spirit and wit based perils. This is very noticeable early in the game when you are often reliant on your base stats to complete your first 2 quests due to the lack of equipment and the initial strength of banes/kings guard. The dragon clan affinity has little impact early game as most players don't start with rot for the -2 die to be relevant and while the no dawn damage helps with card cycling but it isn't as strong as a regular affinity bonus. This often puts dragon clan members behind early game so other player usually have a stat advantage over you as they are able to complete more quests.

By adding a 0 affinity stat to the dragon clan which then synergies with the Discipline amulet your also turning it into an offensive and defensive ability than works against players and NPC's with or without rot rather than bolstering the -2 die ability to -4 die which would still only apply to rot battles where you have less rot with a 3-4 rot difference as the default will apply for the first 2. You are also increasing you proficiency in perils which is especially relevant in the palace. You also give the dragon clan a decent way to boost offence because as of right now there is no ring which provides this (Axinite activates after first successfully winning a battle, Basalt applys poison but adds no offence in battle, Tremolite effects creatures for their turn so is usually worn off before you can take advantage of this) and only a few amulets which can help with this (Scratch - not great but currently the best option, Harmonize - Inconsistent as it requires drawing rot symbols and needs fight (die), wit (hand size) and spirit (explode pool) to scale. rot cards are good to play or burn in perils as well, Intimidate - same as tremolite, usually wears off before your turn).