Allie's pact

[seathesee]

I have played multiple single player and multiplayer games of armello. Im really enjoying the game so far, and aside form the kickstarter exclusives issue (which I think is a big problem for multiplayer) I think this game is great and the devs have done a fantastic job thus far.

That said, I do have an issue with one of the cards--Allie's pact. I actually generally like the concept of allies pact. I think its fair (especially in comparison to the 3 prestige banner), and I like the idea of cards that give a decent benefit with a tradeoff. Allie's pact has the potential to be very un-fun and unfair in multiplayer, however. I dont have a problem when it is used pretty much any time before the last few turns, and I dont have a problem with it when it is used to give the caster a prestige win, but i do have a problem with it when a player who is obviously going to lose uses it as a kingmaker spell.

Kingmaking is not very fun, skill intensive, or something that should be promoted in a multiplayer board game, imo. Theres no worse feeling when then when youre duking it out with another player, have overcome the other player, and then are dragged down by some spiteful player who is not doing to well, or worse, the friend or relative of the 2nd place player.

I think this issue could be fixed relatively easily by restricting this card from being used on the last round, or restricting its use to characters who are the same day/night affinity, or some other creative fix i cant think of right now. As it stands, however, this card leads to unfun situations and can ruin competitive games.

Thanks for reading.

[Kletian999]

I found myself Kingmaking nearly all my Online games. The reason why was because I was Sana, and one person would offer me a truce, and at least one different person would try to spawn camp me for Prestige, keeping me from owning towns/getting money/reaching quests, so I'd use her magic to harm the camper while letting the ally pacts boost my friend. When people have no hope, Kingmaking happens. Play responsibly. (Also, LoG should give Sana more hand size without the Wits Amulet).

[seathesee]

I think the solution to your problem is to balance (i.e. buff) sana, not to give people a means to randomly be a jerk to the person winning.

I should note my comment really regards the competitive viability of this game. I feel like that is what the devs are going for--creating a game that can be played competitively. If the devs want this to be a purely casual affair, I dont see anything wrong with this card, but the game is clearly not for me, and I kind of regret my purchase.

[Narkulus]

I hope this doesn't become a kingmaking game, or a Monopoly style game where one player starts running away with the game and everyone else is hopelessly trying to play catch up. Most good modern board games end up in a close finish, or if someone wins by a large margin, it's not revealed until points are counted up at the end of the game. I'm sure balancing has to be close to the top of their priorities and this will get better.

[Kletian999]

The best way to beat someone using Prestige to win is to kill the King, or get the stones. It's not that common a card anyway if you are poor.

I agree Sana needs something to compensate for her low wits. However, even if all characters were balanced and I just drew badly, if a player is getting ground into the dust, kingmaking is the only kind of victory you can hope for. I'm trying to highlight that a super aggressive playstyle that makes you a hated enemy is a sure step to failure.

[KiPhish]

Originally posted by Kletian999:

I'm trying to highlight that a super aggressive playstyle that makes you a hated enemy is a sure step to failure.

This. The quest for the throne involves more than just combat or gold or magic. Good diplomacy with other players is crucial. Although right now the use of preset phrases is limiting (which is why I want a proper chat system) - it is still possible. Kingmaking highlights the potential of a single player - no matter how weak they may be. It might be annoying, but it mimics the human feelings of spite and vengeance. This is what makes multiplayer so interesting and engaging - the emergence of real life behavior. This adds layers of awesome complexity and intrigue to the game.

[[LoG] Blake]

Hey everyone, firstly this is a fantastic thread!

We do want Armello to stand proud as a competitive game and any issues you notice or suggestions to make it better, we'll listen to very carefully.

We want the end games to be as tight and as tense as possible, we don't like a single Hero running away to victory either.

Keep the ideas and comments coming, we're listening and this subject is one of our top priorities right now. It is probably going to take us more than one or two updates to get on top of the game's balance, but please help us out and let us know what you think.

Cheers everyone!

[Kletian999]

I'll say it again- hand management is very important. Having low wits and being unable to get rid of cards you don't want outside of burning is crippling to Sana players, and it's part of what makes Mercurio so strong.

[Alvorn]

As a complete aside can I echo what Blake said. After having my head in this game since Alpha its GREAT to see threads like this ! Discussion around game play, strategy and balance, all well thought out, its great ! And its been less than a week since EA started. Lookign forward to seeing where the game goes with such great feedback and passion being shown already.

I do know that there are quite a few magic cards still to be added to the decks, which should help Sana somewhat. But yeah I agree, at the moment Sana seems to be the poor cousin. The character no one really wants to play cause she always seems to be getting her arse kicked.

Now as for Kingmaking (and rage quitting) during Alpha and Beta testing there weren't enough of us to pick up on these sorts of things. And we all knew each other to one degree or another.

So KingMaking is a new stratergy that hadn't come up before. It will be interesting to see how LoG handel it. They have said that down the line (after final release) they woudl love to add team play :) But thats a long way off yet.

[Kletian999]

In some ways, the addition of more magic cards might make Sana weaker. Right now we have cards like Divination (literraly not functioning in human multiplayer with a poor Sun burn), Plague (essential if you want to rot victory, terrible if you don't especially since Sana would lose her magic circles), or Cursed Land (Great if you want to make the game unwinnable outside of Prestige, or be a rot burn, terrible otherwise). The more cards in the game that aren't Barkskin, Feral, or Mirror image the worse Sana will be in PvP and Baneslaying.

[Alvorn]

Originally posted by Kletian999:

In some ways, the addition of more magic cards might make Sana weaker. Right now we have cards like Divination (literraly not functioning in human multiplayer with a poor Sun burn), Plague (essential if you want to rot victory, terrible if you don't especially since Sana would lose her magic circles), or Cursed Land (Great if you want to make the game unwinnable outside of Prestige, or be a rot burn, terrible otherwise). The more cards in the game that aren't Barkskin, Feral, or Mirror image the worse Sana will be in PvP and Baneslaying.

Thats assuming you the new cards aren't even better for her. For example Feral and Lightining Strike have only just been added. So there is a good chance that the new cards will also be combat/buff focused.

You do raise a good point about Sana's talent and Corruption though. I think I might just start a new thread on that one...

Alvorn

[Yann]

I think the game is pretty much balanced already and I can only praise the talent of the developers for doing such a thing. Congrats for doing this game!