Sylas' passive is OP?

[Darion]

Seems like he's too strong vs. other heroes passives.

[SleipnirS]

noelwym님이 먼저 게시:

I just curb-stomped the King with a lucky haul of the Silver Lance, Lionheart Breastplate and Hero's Shield with Sylas. That said, Sylas is generally one of the hardest heroes to deal with once he has activated his ability and obtained good armour. Sure, one can play Perils and Spells on him, but given he has a nice base of 6 Health, he can take quite a beating (with the only exception being a Spirit Strike by Sana or Twiss). Despite how much I am currently exploiting his strengths, I do agree that he needs to be nerfed one way or another. He simply is too difficult too stop once he gets the ball rolling.

You don't have to kill a character to deal with him C: you could just steal his gear, strip him before attaking him or just use that spell card on him which makes him flee from each fight ... really fun to use it in the morning, right before the guard's turns. (don't have the name in english).


Sure, Sylas is a powerful fighter but having a high bounty on his head makes him the favorite target of spell/trickery cards users and that's why I think he doesn't need any nerf at all. He's my favorite puppet when I play Elyssa or Sargon because I know I'll have an easy way to get prestige/coins during the entire game. Playing him against three spell/trickery users must be a nightmare ...

[Kimotoprima]

I was recently in a game with a Sylas player and I was playing my spell sniper River build. Sylas literally could not do anything to get ahead. He won by a narrow margin on attacking the King, but at every turn I was depriving him of gear, hitting him with spells, or reprieving him to deny his bounty.

[Kletian999]

As someone who played with sylas's original power i believe the current implementation is fair except perhaps the piercing OR traitor being applied for the King automatically.

[sniktchtherat]

Also, remember that focused is both good and bad: Sylas will butcher others in combat...but his Spirit is never rising above 3. Wits Perils aren't quite as solid since most Sylas players will push for AT LEAST 4, often 5 - my usual questplan is Wit, Body, Wit then choose between Fight or Body for the last one depending on circumstances.

[Tei]

The fact that you can play cards to Sylas has nothing to do with the advantages his power provides. What hero deals with spells and having gear stolen well? Name one hero that is in a significantly better position than Sylas when they die repeatedly and have poor gear. "Just play spells and trickery" is like saying every hero in a moba is perfectly fine just because you can stun then kill them or get a level advantage. That's simply not how balance discussions work because you aren't even talking about anything specific to that hero.

Not to mention Sylas is tied for highest base body, which makes him more resilient to spells than average. Almost any time you kill Sylas with spells, you can safely assume any other hero would have died too while potentially requiring less resources.

sniktchtherat님이 먼저 게시:

Also, remember that focused is both good and bad: Sylas will butcher others in combat...but his Spirit is never rising above 3.

This depends entirely on who is playing Sylas. I find 4 spirit over 3 to be a very good investment in most games regardless of the hero I'm using. 1 more spirit can let you cast two spells instead of one which also means you're drawing another card when you otherwise wouldn't. It's also increasing your spell range by a third. Drawing a bunch of spells once you have good enough gear is great on Sylas (or any hero really) because you deprive enemies of some cards they hope to draw against you and you're drawing good stuff you can use. Sylas can even surpass every fighter except Brun in terms of spell casting power because he can use amethyst. Sylas can very well be a better fighter and mage than whatever hero you picked.

[Kletian999]

Sylas is on average going to have less life on the board than the other 6 body heros from guard attacks. it takes at least 3 shields of gear to reliably stop guard damage and with 3 wits to start and not equipping the town boost ring it could take a while. Serendibite is not that lucrative a gold source, you'll be lucky to kill 1 guard a day/night cycle unless you loiter next to the walls.

[SleipnirS]

Tei님이 먼저 게시:

That's simply not how balance discussions work because you aren't even talking about anything specific to that hero

The whole topic is about Sylas passive so I don't see your point. And to balance a character, you have to compare it to other characters, right? Or else it's not balancing anymore.

Tei님이 먼저 게시:

What hero deals with spells and having gear stolen well? Name one hero that is in a significantly better position than Sylas when they die repeatedly and have poor gear

It's not like Sylas automatically gets +3 sword when he spawns. What if there's no guards nearby? What if he gets killed by a guard because of bad/no gear or simply RNG? His passive gives alot for taking risks or nothing for playing safe. (and by risks, I don't even think about attacking guards but potentially becoming everyone's spell/trickery cards target)

[Bread-kun]

I think a lot of you are failing to understand that Sylas has a strong passive, that's also difficult to continue building up to that point. When he dies it's over and his passive is reset. Or hell you can pardon him even and reset it. The wolf clan are overall better fighters due to their reliability. River garuntees 1 damage regardless, Thane can pierce as much as he burns cards, and Magna can reflect as much as she burns cards. Sylas relies on the waiting game to get his passive up and running, and if he's killed and set back he effectively has no passive at all until he finds a way to become wanted, and RNG could very well make that take 3-4 turns just to achieve.

[StierlitZ]

Remove his three free swords vs other heroes, let him keep it against the kings guard.

I mean ffs mercurio only steals 1 gold and horace's only power is a glorified false orders

[Kletian999]

I'd rather Merc get a buff than Sylas get a nerf.

[Daddy Firestorm]

I think the reason why Mercurio isn't buffed is because he steals that gold from other players...
Too be honest, I'd rather see him getting more gold, but not from another player, than dealing with this low ability... it's actually not that good, especially if the player in question has no gold to begin with...

Or maybe the stealing should also accor after winning a battle? much like Twiss's stealing?

[Durzlla]

Firestorm님이 먼저 게시:

I think the reason why Mercurio isn't buffed is because he steals that gold from other players...
Too be honest, I'd rather see him getting more gold, but not from another player, than dealing with this low ability... it's actually not that good, especially if the player in question has no gold to begin with...

Or maybe the stealing should also accor after winning a battle? much like Twiss's stealing?

I would like to see Mercurio steal gold when he both captures a settlement, AND when a player captures Mercurios settlement, will really make people second guess taking his stuff.

[Tei]

Kletian999님이 먼저 게시:

Sylas is on average going to have less life on the board than the other 6 body heros from guard attacks. it takes at least 3 shields of gear to reliably stop guard damage and with 3 wits to start and not equipping the town boost ring it could take a while. Serendibite is not that lucrative a gold source, you'll be lucky to kill 1 guard a day/night cycle unless you loiter next to the walls.

True, Sylas is more likely to lose hp from guard attacks simply because he fights them more. However, he is less likely to be attacked by heroes because many times it's suicidal. Sylas runs a greater risk of being damaged by guards, usually the weakest creatures on the board offensively, in exchange for scaring off other heroes, the biggest offensive threats that can attack you 3 times in one turn. High kill potential can also save him hp against any opponent by making sure he doesn't have to fight an enemy multiple times.

3 wits is common for fight heroes. River, Barnaby and Zosha are the only major fighters with 4 wits, and they all either have less gold than Sylas or a hero power that makes cycling harder. Sylas doesn't have a noteworthy gear drawing disadvantage compared to other combat heroes. Anyone who is ok with 3 wits, can also just use resist to hit the 3 shield sweet spot quickly and consistently. It's easier to justify resist on Sylas than Brun, Thane or Magna because his power doesn't need wits to get value. As a side note, I like topaz more than serendibite. Part of it is because of the reason you mention. I also see gold as less important when I can consistently fight guards because I don't really need much gold once I have good enough gear to fight.

SleipnirS님이 먼저 게시:

The whole topic is about Sylas passive so I don't see your point. And to balance a character, you have to compare it to other characters, right? Or else it's not balancing anymore.

It's not like Sylas automatically gets +3 sword when he spawns. What if there's no guards nearby? What if he gets killed by a guard because of bad/no gear or simply RNG? His passive gives alot for taking risks or nothing for playing safe. (and by risks, I don't even think about attacking guards but potentially becoming everyone's spell/trickery cards target)

My point is that you can't just say something like "Sylas loses to spells and trickery" without going into details. If you say spells are Sylas' weakness, you need to say how he is easier to kill than average with spells or how he'll be in a worse spot than another hero in a similar situation.

Sylas does lose his power once he dies. This is a fairly unique disadvantage as only Brun shares it. However, every combat power is usually useless immediately after death. The major problem with death is that you are no longer where you were. Piercing sword burns won't stop someone in the palace when you're 2 turns away. Reflects don't get you to your quest. You still need time to get in range of the enemy to use your power. There isn't any practical difference between something being present or absent when it can't be used either way. Is Sylas slightly worse off when he dies? Sure, but is it by a big enough margin to balance out his advantages compared to other heroes? No, death thoroughly neutralizes every combat hero anyway.

Every hero can be killed by npcs getting an explosion chain and has times when their power is bad or not active. What if Thane doesn't have sword burns? What if Brun's dice miss? What if Scarlet can't get to the settlement first? What if a 1 hp guard is standing on the palace tile River wants to use? What if Amber still rolls a bane? What if Ghor doesn't have any good forest spots? The fact that Sylas' power might as well not exist some times is the same issue other powers have while also being less powerful, free and/or consistent than his.

[Kletian999]

Its not player suicide to attack sylas before traitor status. If hes really turtled up and has less than 5 rollable fight dice even 3 swords is worth the massive bounty risk.

[Durzlla]

Kletian999님이 먼저 게시:

Its not player suicide to attack sylas before traitor status. If hes really turtled up and has less than 5 rollable fight dice even 3 swords is worth the massive bounty risk.

Even at full traitor Sylas I've never been afraid to fight him on Thane, River, Barnaby, or hell even Fight Amber, the +3 (or is it a total of +4?) prestiege and +3 gold is almost always worth the risk.

And if he's EVER killable with spells with a bounty like that, I take him out, the only scenarios I wouldn't kill a high bounties Sylas over another fight character is that the other guys about to win, I'm feeling super spiteful and don't even care about winning at that point, or I'm riding on Sylas' coat tails via an onscene amount of pacts and so he's more useful to me alive.