Trickery still utterly sucks.

[Doesn't Learn From Mistakes]

So. Prior to 1.5, there was some hype about new trickery cards. These cards, we were told, would be a huge buff to the lackluster deck that’s trickery, so powerful as to even hope to balance out the stupidly broken mess that’s Ghor:


https://steamcommunity.com/app/290340/discussions/0/224446614458179670/?ctp=2#c224446614469457321


“Everything is contextual, especially hero strength and perception of strength. The Trickery deck may feel really powerful, in the next update so Ghor may feel more in-line. Once again, we're monitoring the matter.”


What an utter, absolute and complete letdown. None of the core problems associated with trickery have been solved. Of the cards introduced, only Grand Heist is the potential game changer, and Blackmail might be of some use. The rest? Not so much. First, let’s go over the core problems with trickery:




1. The good cards are far too rare.


Disguise, Strategist, Bribery - these are all unique cards. Cat burglar is rare. Compared to the base utility of the spell deck, the cards actually worth playing in trickery aren’t those which you can reliably count on getting on even in the whole of a game. Either you stick them in your hand all day, someone else gets them and burns them, or to make things even worse…




2. The Mad King shares the deck with the players.


This. This is a huge problem with the trickery deck, because so many of the useful cards in the deck are perils. Mercs? Peril. Bribery? Peril. Cat Burglar? Peril. Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Every single damaging card in the deck is a peril, and apparently LoG hasn’t learned anything, because Sharpshooter is a peril and a hilariously easy two-symbol peril with the one of the most common symbols around.


So the king happily picks the half-decent, unique cards from the deck, leaving trickery with a hand full of hogwash. This could be easily solved by him having his own unique peril deck, but I guess this apparently isn’t any kind of problem. Which leads us to the next issue:




3. There aren’t enough cards that DO things.


A lot of the non-peril cards in the trickery deck are aimed giving players the ability to do things, but don’t actually DO the things themselves. Cards like merchant’s agreement, allies’ pact, rangers and the like give the players resources and information.


Too bad that there’s nothing you can actually DO with these, since all the active cards have been stolen by the king and other players. Drawing from the trickery deck essentially means you end up with a bunch of spy network, agent of misfortune, saboteur and other cards that theoretically make doing things easier, but don’t actually DO anything. It’s far too much setup if it even pays off, compared to a simple immolation for 3 damage.


This problem is compounded by the situationality of the cards themselves. Consider pick pockets. A nice idea - use other cards to drain gold from the opponent, then play to steal an item. Too bad it NEVER happens that way. The gold threshold is far too low at 1 gold, players often have far more than that, the settlement-only tile restriction - all these compound to make pick pockets a card which is never played to its intent, and at most is a throwaway peril.


Stealing a couple gold from another player isn’t going to prevent them from getting to their quest, but a banish or couple immolations will.




4. And when the cards actually manage to DO things, their effects are unreliable at best.


Ever played cat burglar to someone toting a treasure, and get an adventurer’s kit in return? Ever play bribery to someone, and end up with the stranger instead? Some kind of priority would be nice, but I guess that’s too much to ask. The highly tile-restrictive nature of so many trickery cards means I have to play them as perils or pray that my target has to stop on a tile that’s valid. If I play them as perils, that means that they can be passed and my gold is wasted. Or maybe they’re just walked around.


Bounty? Does it really matter by the point everyone is shielded up and Barry is largely ineffectual unless he gets a lucky wyld streak? I’d have appreciated the scaling bounties more if Barry didn’t get more AP, but instead additional auto-swords per level of bounty.


But when I play teleport or banish, I always get that result. When I play immolation or moonbite to a player, the resultant effect is reliable. “Play to hero” trickery cards that actually DO things are… well, largely nonexistent. Mercenaries is such a good trickery card because it has good targeting and actually does something. Too bad there’re only so few of them.




5. Speaking of which, it’s not like their effects are very good anyways.
Seriously. What are the most vital resources in the game, considering the current meta? AP and shields. To be fair, a few trickery cards do take away AP, but it’s not as if the spell deck doesn’t have its own analogues, and far more powerful ones to boot. Plus, said trickeries are all perils.


But trickery simply doesn’t have analogues of haste, teleport or banish. It doesn’t have any high-damaging cards like spirit strike or immolation. It doesn’t have any sort of buffs, which not only help in their nominal functions but also serve to help in quests. The best trickery can do for you is to gain you lots of prestige (which is largely useless in high-level play, as the prestige win usually only comes up as a result of failed kingslayer) or stealing items from other players, which as explained above, is stupidly unreliable at best, and negligible at worst. I’ve played Armello since release, and can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I’ve had something actually valuable stolen from me.


There are so many things trickery could do, since the theme seems to be around denial of resources and effects to other players. Blocking spellcasts to and from a player (inquisitors). Debuffing stats. Negating card play (body double). Forcing players off tiles (misdirection). Just a few examples of effects that are a) useful and b) have no easy analogue in the spell deck.


To make things worse, spells are the ONLY way to affect a player in the palace at range. Once a player is in the palace, Saboteur is the only trickery card which works on them, and that’s hardly going to seriously hamper anyone at endgame.


Haha, no.


To make a long story short, the new cards were mostly counterproductive (sans grand heist and maybe blackmail). Adding yet more largely situational and worthless cards to the deck only dilutes the odds of actually drawing anything worthwhile from trickery. Players can draw from only items and spells and win handily (looking at you, Ghor); the same can’t be said of items and trickery (poor Mercurio). Elyssia spamming trickeries is far less threatening than Ghor spamming spells, and it’s not as if magic players can’t also draw from the same trickery deck and get the same town bonuses, as opposed to non-magic heroes drawing from the spell deck.


I don’t want more bells and whistles, I don’t want more shiny toys, I want THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS WITH THE DECK LOOKED AT. I want to have a reason to draw from trickery that isn’t hopefully topdecking strategist at the 11th hour. Calling the new additions to the trickery deck “powerful” is a laughable joke. Give me one instance where blood money actually turned the game around in practice, like spirit strike or banish can.


“The trickery deck may feel really powerful” Haha. Ahaha. Ahahahahahaha. FFS, Sharpshooter. What a stupidly, hilariously underpowered card for 3 gold. Deals bonus damage to bountied targets, too bad you use all the money you would’ve gotten from their bounty using the damn thing. If it’d been 2 for wanted, 3 for fugitive, 4 for traitor, maaaybe it might be better. I thought that was what it did at first, but then it turned out to be awful; you can’t even play that ♥♥♥♥ to the palace, where heroes are most likely to have bounties.


No.


At least you lot didn’t make grand heist a peril. That would just be a slap in the face.

[Schulz]

Originally posted by Cake or death:

So. Prior to 1.5, there was some hype about new trickery cards. These cards, we were told, would be a huge buff to the lackluster deck that’s trickery, so powerful as to even hope to balance out the stupidly broken mess that’s Ghor:


https://steamcommunity.com/app/290340/discussions/0/224446614458179670/?ctp=2#c224446614469457321


“Everything is contextual, especially hero strength and perception of strength. The Trickery deck may feel really powerful, in the next update so Ghor may feel more in-line. Once again, we're monitoring the matter.”


What an utter, absolute and complete letdown. None of the core problems associated with trickery have been solved. Of the cards introduced, only Grand Heist is the potential game changer, and Blackmail might be of some use. The rest? Not so much. First, let’s go over the core problems with trickery:




1. The good cards are far too rare.


Disguise, Strategist, Bribery - these are all unique cards. Cat burglar is rare. Compared to the base utility of the spell deck, the cards actually worth playing in trickery aren’t those which you can reliably count on getting on even in the whole of a game. Either you stick them in your hand all day, someone else gets them and burns them, or to make things even worse…




2. The Mad King shares the deck with the players.


This. This is a huge problem with the trickery deck, because so many of the useful cards in the deck are perils. Mercs? Peril. Bribery? Peril. Cat Burglar? Peril. Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Every single damaging card in the deck is a peril, and apparently LoG hasn’t learned anything, because Sharpshooter is a peril and a hilariously easy two-symbol peril with the one of the most common symbols around.


So the king happily picks the half-decent, unique cards from the deck, leaving trickery with a hand full of hogwash. This could be easily solved by him having his own unique peril deck, but I guess this apparently isn’t any kind of problem. Which leads us to the next issue:




3. There aren’t enough cards that DO things.


A lot of the non-peril cards in the trickery deck are aimed giving players the ability to do things, but don’t actually DO the things themselves. Cards like merchant’s agreement, allies’ pact, rangers and the like give the players resources and information.


Too bad that there’s nothing you can actually DO with these, since all the active cards have been stolen by the king and other players. Drawing from the trickery deck essentially means you end up with a bunch of spy network, agent of misfortune, saboteur and other cards that theoretically make doing things easier, but don’t actually DO anything. It’s far too much setup if it even pays off, compared to a simple immolation for 3 damage.


This problem is compounded by the situationality of the cards themselves. Consider pick pockets. A nice idea - use other cards to drain gold from the opponent, then play to steal an item. Too bad it NEVER happens that way. The gold threshold is far too low at 1 gold, players often have far more than that, the settlement-only tile restriction - all these compound to make pick pockets a card which is never played to its intent, and at most is a throwaway peril.


Stealing a couple gold from another player isn’t going to prevent them from getting to their quest, but a banish or couple immolations will.




4. And when the cards actually manage to DO things, their effects are unreliable at best.


Ever played cat burglar to someone toting a treasure, and get an adventurer’s kit in return? Ever play bribery to someone, and end up with the stranger instead? Some kind of priority would be nice, but I guess that’s too much to ask. The highly tile-restrictive nature of so many trickery cards means I have to play them as perils or pray that my target has to stop on a tile that’s valid. If I play them as perils, that means that they can be passed and my gold is wasted. Or maybe they’re just walked around.


Bounty? Does it really matter by the point everyone is shielded up and Barry is largely ineffectual unless he gets a lucky wyld streak? I’d have appreciated the scaling bounties more if Barry didn’t get more AP, but instead additional auto-swords per level of bounty.


But when I play teleport or banish, I always get that result. When I play immolation or moonbite to a player, the resultant effect is reliable. “Play to hero” trickery cards that actually DO things are… well, largely nonexistent. Mercenaries is such a good trickery card because it has good targeting and actually does something. Too bad there’re only so few of them.




5. Speaking of which, it’s not like their effects are very good anyways.
Seriously. What are the most vital resources in the game, considering the current meta? AP and shields. To be fair, a few trickery cards do take away AP, but it’s not as if the spell deck doesn’t have its own analogues, and far more powerful ones to boot. Plus, said trickeries are all perils.


But trickery simply doesn’t have analogues of haste, teleport or banish. It doesn’t have any high-damaging cards like spirit strike or immolation. It doesn’t have any sort of buffs, which not only help in their nominal functions but also serve to help in quests. The best trickery can do for you is to gain you lots of prestige (which is largely useless in high-level play, as the prestige win usually only comes up as a result of failed kingslayer) or stealing items from other players, which as explained above, is stupidly unreliable at best, and negligible at worst. I’ve played Armello since release, and can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I’ve had something actually valuable stolen from me.


There are so many things trickery could do, since the theme seems to be around denial of resources and effects to other players. Blocking spellcasts to and from a player (inquisitors). Debuffing stats. Negating card play (body double). Forcing players off tiles (misdirection). Just a few examples of effects that are a) useful and b) have no easy analogue in the spell deck.


To make things worse, spells are the ONLY way to affect a player in the palace at range. Once a player is in the palace, Saboteur is the only trickery card which works on them, and that’s hardly going to seriously hamper anyone at endgame.


Haha, no.


To make a long story short, the new cards were mostly counterproductive (sans grand heist and maybe blackmail). Adding yet more largely situational and worthless cards to the deck only dilutes the odds of actually drawing anything worthwhile from trickery. Players can draw from only items and spells and win handily (looking at you, Ghor); the same can’t be said of items and trickery (poor Mercurio). Elyssia spamming trickeries is far less threatening than Ghor spamming spells, and it’s not as if magic players can’t also draw from the same trickery deck and get the same town bonuses, as opposed to non-magic heroes drawing from the spell deck.


I don’t want more bells and whistles, I don’t want more shiny toys, I want THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS WITH THE DECK LOOKED AT. I want to have a reason to draw from trickery that isn’t hopefully topdecking strategist at the 11th hour. Calling the new additions to the trickery deck “powerful” is a laughable joke. Give me one instance where blood money actually turned the game around in practice, like spirit strike or banish can.


“The trickery deck may feel really powerful” Haha. Ahaha. Ahahahahahaha. FFS, Sharpshooter. What a stupidly, hilariously underpowered card for 3 gold. Deals bonus damage to bountied targets, too bad you use all the money you would’ve gotten from their bounty using the damn thing. If it’d been 2 for wanted, 3 for fugitive, 4 for traitor, maaaybe it might be better. I thought that was what it did at first, but then it turned out to be awful; you can’t even play that ♥♥♥♥ to the palace, where heroes are most likely to have bounties.


No.


At least you lot didn’t make grand heist a peril. That would just be a slap in the face.

ohh look my post <33

[Doesn't Learn From Mistakes]

Originally posted by Astranon:

@Cake or death, Well, I don't think that longwinded, overly emotional post deserves any cake so...

It should have been less ascerbic, but the points still stand.

[supermechace]

I don't think the king draws from the same deck as a player does, I think the king has a separate deck even though it is copies of certain cards.

[Doesn't Learn From Mistakes]

Originally posted by supermechace:

I don't think the king draws from the same deck as a player does, I think the king has a separate deck even though it is copies of certain cards.

He does. You can sometimes see "x deck reshuffled" (almost always spell) during the mad king phase each night.

You can doubly confirm this with some tools I won't bother mentioning here.

[Mister UPS Man]

Can confirm that the King does indeed use the actual cards from the spell and trickery decks as perils on the board. If King places a Call of the Worm thanks to Mad King, there will be no more Call of the Worm cards for the remainder of the game unless a shuffle happens. (Or Dark influence, but Dark influence ignores card rarity/status)

[Tei]

I was somewhat expecting a feature of 1.5 to be a balance pass on the trickery deck. However, I don't think huge changes are necessary.

Pickpockets and incite revolt would be way better just by costing 1 prestige. Cat burglar, bribery and behead should be 'play to hero' non-peril cards and ignore the stranger. Emissary should cost 1. Saboteur should give -1 dice in combat and perils. Armistice should instantly brand the attacker a traitor and the defender steals gold and prestige. You can argue that allies' pact and merchant's agreement could be free because you give an enemy the exact same benefit that you gain.

I'd like to see changes like that, but I don't want to see more ways to kill another player or force them off the palace from across the map without risk. Cards that literally negate other cards wouldn't be good either.

[ムUltrAム]

i'm agree, +1 to this post

[Kletian999]

Everything in the OP is true and many issues have perservered since beta. The tone is justified with the level of impatience generated by such halting actions. Mad king mode made it much worse by taking all the good cards.

It was abundantly clear during last nights game when they almost lost to the ai using a trickery mercurio. Cubs blood got a more significant buff than trickery combined.

[Quincy_Morris]

Trickery was never a bad style. its the most reliable way to protect your settlements and the cards have unlimited range not to mention all the benefit from the prestige cards.

And given that people who go more towards trickery do so by increasing intelect it increases the likelihood of drawing those sweet cards. Unlike spirit where you have to ballance between upping spirit and upping intelect.

not only that but by focusing on intelect you can have a good chance of getting intelect quests which you have far more liklihood to succeed.

And in addition to THAT by having a high intellect stat you have lots of cards which you can use for combat so it doesn't even limit you in that regard.

Trickery isn't a bad deck. You just need to git gud

[Ponyeater]

Originally posted by KRAG Canterlot Royal Guard:

Trickery was never a bad style. its the most reliable way to protect your settlements and the cards have unlimited range not to mention all the benefit from the prestige cards.

And given that people who go more towards trickery do so by increasing intelect it increases the likelihood of drawing those sweet cards. Unlike spirit where you have to ballance between upping spirit and upping intelect.

not only that but by focusing on intelect you can have a good chance of getting intelect quests which you have far more liklihood to succeed.

And in addition to THAT by having a high intellect stat you have lots of cards which you can use for combat so it doesn't even limit you in that regard.

Trickery isn't a bad deck. You just need to git gud

It's also wonderful to strangle someone elses economy.

[WordSlice]

Hey Cake or Death,

Whilst your tone is fairly abrasive, you have some really good feedback in here and it's definitely appreciated. I've forwarded it through to the design minds in the team.

But yeah, good stuff.


<3 Darcy

[[LoG] Trent Kusters]

I'm gonna jump in here and second Darcy on the value of this feedback (it's already sparked some great conversations here at the studio), but I am also going to state that the tone in which said feedback was delivered is completely uncalled for, entirely counter-productive and has no place in any part of the LoG community.

Seems like pretty simple stuff, but writing your feedback to the developers in a holier-than-thou writing style best described as "♥♥♥♥ you for the free content," likely isn't a great way to state your case for some changes. Especially when you've not been privy to any of the internal conversations or reasoning for the thousands of decisions made in the lead up to a launch.

So, just a gentle reminder to everyone that giving people (including us) the benefit of the doubt is likely a great place to start when conversing in our community - and likely just in general, right?

Be cool, people. Be cool.


<3 Trent

[The Last Anti-Gamer]

Hello its me, the guy from ghorbavn. Some saucy points OP provided with his saucy attitude but that is ok. I give current theory of how to use trickery deck.


---------------------------

Abstract:
if you play armadillo as a team game u can use trackeries, but as solo mode it is not standalone deck.

Conclusion:
amadillo can be played as solo gaem but teamgame potential is officially thru the roof. Use trickery deck as support character mario or alicia for example instead of hoping it is stand alone deck to solo with

---------------------------

if you want to solo with trickery deck, u should lose more on average because in its current state it is entirely support cards as opposed to win card

[Comrade243]

Since the launch of 1.5, I've exclusively played as Trickery-centric Merc.

I've won 8 out of the 11 games I've played so far. (Two Prestige, two Spirit Stones, four Battle.) Two of the losses were near-losses - I wasn't lagging in the back of the pack at any point. Most of these matches were against non-newbies, as could be verified by their Achievements, Rings/Amulets, and playstyles.

This isn't even unique to 1.5. I've primarily been using strategies that rely on Trickery since I started playing this game (300+ hours ago in game time). And I've done quite well.

Does this isolated, anectodal account prove that the Trickery deck is not suffering from structural problems? No. But it casts substantial doubt on the contention that the deck "utterly sucks," or that winning strategies, even at mid- to high-level play, can't be made with it.

[Pola]

I've played trickery more with the update. Mostly Sargon and Elyssia(wow awesome for trickery). I find it better to play with the goal of prestige, going with the favor amulet for a prestige boost and bunnies having that ring that gives prestige for treasures/followers is great. If you don't have any additional prestige, the prestige cost cards become free to use.

Elyssia's ability can deter another hero from being able to chase you due to the cost of the walls getting in the way. You're on fire when there is 6-7 settlements on the map, not so much when there is 4. I'd get targeted alot but as long as I had a few settlements I could burn through the trickery deck and rake in the gold.

Sometimes draws aren't great, especially if you don't have the trickery cost reduction, but it feels pretty good to me. Only need to be careful around the end when players go to fight the king. By that time you should have lots of money and probably found some nice equips, if you gave yourself enough attack stats you can fight them(or the king, strategist and disguise cards are helpful here). Some trickery cards can dish out nice damage for their cost/range(not too effective in the palace). If spirit stones haven't been scarce grand heist works awesomely, with Sargon I'd do a mix of spell/trickery for the spirit stones and transportation, playing defensively with evasion ring.

Trickery might not be right for some characters play styles, with Thane it's much better to boost wit and health then use the pierce ability on the king early.

You make great points btw, love the effect suggestions. Seeing sharpshooter damage scale by bounty like a trickery immolation that can be used in the palace would be great too.