Anyone else baffled by how beaters work?

[gbuglyo]

So, I know that most of the purist complaints about the game center around the Seeker and the Snitch (and honestly, fair enough), but I was totally floored when the tutorial had me, as a Beater, whack a player directly with my bat instead of just sending a Bludger. Like, seriously?

Why mess with the canon when you don’t even have to? Quidditch is a tough sport, but not that kind of tough. Plus, Bludgers are supposed to go rogue and target players on their own.

[iSynden]

gbuglyo eredeti hozzászólása:

iSynden eredeti hozzászólása:

Quidditch is a very physical sport,

Yes, that much is true.

iSynden eredeti hozzászólása:

hitting with the bats, with the brooms, bludgers, kicking, punching it's all lore accurate for quidditch.

No. While Quidditch Through the Ages states that "contact is allowed, but a player may not seize hold of another player's broomstick or any part of their anatomy," it does not specify exactly how much contact is allowed. Based on how things play out in the books, it seems that tackling (against the player carrying the Quaffle) is allowed in various ways, but hitting with bats, punching and kicking definitely seem to be illegal. Can you point out any events from the canon where such things happen?

Grabbing hold of someone or their broom and kicking / punching them are vastly different, the first ever quidditch match we see Marcus Flint kick a player, think it's Angelina Johnson, making her spin out of control as he makes his way to attempt to score against gryffindor when Oliver Wood blocks it. We also have Adrian Pucey who elbows a gryffindor chaser in the chest while trying to score in the very same game which very shortly after Marcus Flint sends a bludger straight at Oliver Wood knocking him out.

Year 2 we see a Gryffindor chaser elbow a Slytherin chaser in the collarbone / face as he flies by. Later in the same game we see a Slytherin player come in with a full collision punch striking down a Gryffindor chaser to defend Adrian Pucey as he scores a goal for Slytherin giving them the lead of 90-30 against Gryffindor and in their celebration lap a Slytherin beater attempts to hit Harry Potter in the head with his bat but Harry luckily manages to dodge the hit.

Then we finally have Ron Weasley's big moment as keeper where we within just a few seconds of each other see a Slytherin chaser kick a Gryffindor chaser and then we have what almost look like a full on collosion where a Slytherin chaser shoulder charges / shoulder tackles the Gryffindor chaser (think it's Ginny Weasley) in order to get the quaffle.

So I say again this type of contact is very much lore accurate if you paid attention.

[gbuglyo]

iSynden eredeti hozzászólása:

gbuglyo eredeti hozzászólása:

Yes, that much is true.



No. While Quidditch Through the Ages states that "contact is allowed, but a player may not seize hold of another player's broomstick or any part of their anatomy," it does not specify exactly how much contact is allowed. Based on how things play out in the books, it seems that tackling (against the player carrying the Quaffle) is allowed in various ways, but hitting with bats, punching and kicking definitely seem to be illegal. Can you point out any events from the canon where such things happen?

Grabbing hold of someone or their broom and kicking / punching them are vastly different, the first ever quidditch match we see Marcus Flint literally kick a player, think it's Angelina Johnson, making her spin out of control as he makes his way to attempt to score against gryffindor when Oliver Wood blocks it. We also have Adrian Pucey who elbows a gryffindor chaser in the chest while trying to score in the very same game which very shortly after Marcus Flint sends a bludger straight at Oliver Wood knocking him out.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong there. Here's how the scene plays out:

“And she’s really belting along up there, a neat pass to Alicia Spinnet, a
good find of Oliver Wood’s, last year only a reserve — back to Johnson and
— no, the Slytherins have taken the Quaffle, Slytherin Captain Marcus Flint
gains the Quaffle and off he goes — Flint flying like an eagle up there — he’s
going to sc– no, stopped by an excellent move by Gryffindor Keeper Wood
and the Gryffindors take the Quaffle — that’s Chaser Katie Bell of Gryffindor
there, nice dive around Flint, off up the field and — OUCH — that must have
hurt, hit in the back of the head by a Bludger — Quaffle taken by the
Slytherins — that’s Adrian Pucey speeding off toward the goalposts, but he’s
blocked by a second Bludger — sent his way by Fred or George Weasley,
can’t tell which — nice play by the Gryffindor Beater, anyway, and Johnson
back in possession of the Quaffle, a clear field ahead and off she goes — she’s
really flying — dodges a speeding Bludger — the goalposts are ahead —
come on, now, Angelina — Keeper Bletchley dives — misses —
GRYFFINDOR SCORE!”

...

“Slytherin in possession,” Lee Jordan was saying, “Chaser Pucey ducks
two Bludgers, two Weasleys, and Chaser Bell, and speeds toward the — wait
a moment — was that the Snitch?”
A murmur ran through the crowd as Adrian Pucey dropped the Quaffle, too
busy looking over his shoulder at the flash of gold that had passed his left ear."

There is more to it but nothing like you described. However, there is something in the same scene to give you an idea about what counts as a foul in Quidditch:

"WHAM! A roar of rage echoed from the Gryffindors below — Marcus
Flint had blocked Harry on purpose, and Harry’s broom spun off course,
Harry holding on for dear life.
“Foul!” screamed the Gryffindors.
Madam Hooch spoke angrily to Flint and then ordered a free shot at the
goalposts for Gryffindor. But in all the confusion, of course, the Golden
Snitch had disappeared from sight again."

Even in the movies (which again are not canon so they don't count), the moments you may be referring to are only there to show us how little the Slytherins care about sportsmanship or the opponents' wellbeing. Unfortunately, they do this in a way that isn't lore-accurate or logical, a shortcoming typical for all seven HP movies, especially the later ones that had to deal with more source material and faced time constraints. (Here's hoping the HBO series will use that valuable extra screen time to keep the lore and the internal logic more intact, if I may get a bit off-topic here.)

iSynden eredeti hozzászólása:

Year 2 we see a Gryffindor chaser elbow a Slytherin chaser in the collarbone / face as he flies by. Later in the same game we see a Slytherin player come in with a full collision punch striking down a Gryffindor chaser to defend Adrian Pucey as he scores a goal for Slytherin giving them the lead of 90-30 against Gryffindor and in their celebration lap a Slytherin beater attempts to hit Harry Potter in the head with his bat but Harry luckily manages to dodge the hit.

Nothing like that.

"It had started to rain; Harry felt heavy drops fall onto his face, splattering
onto his glasses. He didn’t have a clue what was going on in the rest of the
game until he heard Lee Jordan, who was commentating, say, “Slytherin lead,
sixty points to zero —”
The Slytherins’ superior brooms were clearly doing their jobs, and
meanwhile the mad Bludger was doing all it could to knock Harry out of the
air. Fred and George were now flying so close to him on either side that Harry
could see nothing at all except their flailing arms and had no chance to look
for the Snitch, let alone catch it."

That's pretty much all of it. The whole scene focuses on Harry's perspective trying to avoid the Bludger and catch the Snitch before Malfoy does, so we see very little of the rest of the match.

iSynden eredeti hozzászólása:

Then we finally have Ron Weasley's big moment as keeper where we within just a few seconds of each other see a Slytherin chaser kick a Gryffindor chaser and then we have what almost look like a full on collosion where a Slytherin chaser shoulder charges / shoulder tackles the Gryffindor chaser (think it's Ginny Weasley) in order to get the quaffle.

Nope, wrong again. Here's the actual scene from the book:

“Oh, and here comes Slytherin’s first attempt on goal, it’s Urquhart
streaking down the pitch and —”
Harry’s stomach turned over.
“— Weasley saves it, well, he’s bound to get lucky sometimes, I suppose.
. . .”
“That’s right, Smith, he is,” muttered Harry, grinning to himself, as he
dived amongst the Chasers with his eyes searching all around for some hint of
the elusive Snitch.
With half an hour of the game gone, Gryffindor were leading sixty points to
zero, Ron having made some truly spectacular saves, some by the very tips of
his gloves, and Ginny having scored four of Gryffindor’s six goals. This
effectively stopped Zacharias wondering loudly whether the two Weasleys
were only there because Harry liked them, and he started on Peakes and
Coote instead.
“Of course, Coote isn’t really the usual build for a Beater,” said Zacharias
loftily, “they’ve generally got a bit more muscle —”
“Hit a Bludger at him!” Harry called to Coote as he zoomed past, but
Coote, grinning broadly, chose to aim the next Bludger at Harper instead, who
was just passing Harry in the opposite direction. Harry was pleased to hear
the dull thunk that meant the Bludger had found its mark.
It seemed as though Gryffindor could do no wrong. Again and again they
scored, and again and again, at the other end of the pitch, Ron saved goals
with apparent ease. He was actually smiling now, and when the crowd greeted
a particularly good save with a rousing chorus of the old favorite “Weasley Is
Our King,” he pretended to conduct them from on high.

After this, Harry catches the Snitch, and the match is over.

iSynden eredeti hozzászólása:

So I say again this type of contact is very much lore accurate if you paid attention.

It seems to me that you've been paying attention to the movies (which are not canon) instead of the books (which are canon). When dealing with questions relating to official lore, the canon is the only thing that counts.

[iSynden]

Until J.K Rowling explicitly states that the moves aren't canon they will remain canon no matter how badly people doesn't like it same as sadly Star Wars Ep 7-9 are considered canon no matter how badly I want them not to be.

[gbuglyo]

iSynden eredeti hozzászólása:

Until J.K Rowling explicitly states that the moves aren't canon they will remain canon no matter how badly people doesn't like it same as sadly Star Wars Ep 7-9 are considered canon no matter how badly I want them not to be.

They won't "remain" canon as they never were. Unlike in the case of Star Wars, no one ever said the movies are supposed to be taken as canon. You see, the HP books and the movies contradict each other a lot, so you can't possibly consider both of them canon at the same time. You're forced to pick one over the other, as canon is supposed to clarify how things actually happened according to the lore. There's no one stopping you from considering the movies as your "head canon" if that's what you prefer, but when you're a video game developer adapting a beloved franchise into a game, you'd better make sure you're building around the real canon.

So in a way, your argument actually proves me right. Outside of the QC Steam forums, I've never seen HP fans argue that the movies should take precedence over the books as canon - the forum of this game seems to be the only place where I constantly bump into such "fans". To me, this suggests that the 147 players currently active in the game (according to Steam Charts) mostly aren’t dedicated fans. True fans seem to be avoiding the game altogether because of its deviations from established lore - and that may explain the low player numbers.

[CruZer]

You're insisting about the fact beaters are not supposed to be so physical with other players in the game (according to books) when we don't really play with the Quidditch rules in a first place.
-one beater not two (thank god..)
-catching the golden snitch don't end a match and grant 150pts for the team.
How bad the experience for other players in the team would be if you're seeker is bad when your chasers and beaters are god tiers ? It has to be entertaining, reward good players and moves.

[gbuglyo]

CruZer eredeti hozzászólása:

You're insisting about the fact beaters are not supposed to be so physical with other players in the game (according to books) when we don't really play with the Quidditch rules in a first place.
-one beater not two (thank god..)
-catching the golden snitch don't end a match and grant 150pts for the team.
How bad the experience for other players in the team would be if you're seeker is bad when your chasers and beaters are god tiers ? It has to be entertaining, reward good players and moves.

You're right that the root of the problem is the game's disrespect for Quidditch rules. As someone put it in one of these threads, the devs had a vision of a game in mind and changed Quidditch to fit that vision, rather than carefully considering what game they could build around the rules of Quidditch as they appear in the lore. But we've discussed the other rule changes in separate threads, this one is focused on the Beaters.