ninja kiwi is the indie EA

[Juniper Seed]

It's really sad to see all the worst practices being constantly implemented into each new game from ninja kiwi.

Bloons TD Battles 2, Bloons Pop!, Bloons Card Storm, and the bRaNd NeW sHoP in Bloons TD 6.

This studio has gone from one of the greatest to persistently destroying their reputation with aggressively implementing predatory monetization into every single thing they release.

I don't believe ninja kiwi cares at all. They seem perfectly content with milking the Bloons franchise to death. The direction that ninja kiwi repeatedly has shown they're moving in is whatever direction they can take to try to convince their fans to repeatedly open up their wallets.

ninja kiwi is farming lifelong fans for every last penny, as long as they're foolish enough to be swindled.

Enough is enough.

[N4V4ST4R]

Originally posted by Elmok:

Originally posted by Dönergepard:

"so because the community asked for it they deserve it and have to have it in the game? despite getting better, more interesting towers instead?"
Yes, that is how community feedback works. If a tower like the beast handler or mermonkey works better than a bloonchipper would have is debateable, but just take a look at how much use beast handler actually gets nowadays. Yes, new towers are always a good thing, but listening to what your community wants is almost always better. (The mermonkey itself isn't actually that bad imo, just because its another water tower and there are so little of them)

"it's not even a useless upgrade, it's good for top path"
Im not sure if i understood something wrong here, but i believe we were talking about the dartling gunners "Faster swivel" upgrade, which makes the tower rotate about 120% faster.
I don't really get why you would say that its good for top path, because that is the one you almost always lock in place anyway. Plus 420/520 is ALWAYS better than 402/502 due to the higher attack speed (and camo detection) provided by the middle path. I think either you or I misunderstood something here, if that is so then i'm sorry.

"why does it bother you? it's not like youre missing out on anything"
Even though it doesnt affect me personally I find it just generally pretty scummy for the price to be that high.

I dont think this discussion is gonna go anywhere from now on so this is probably my last message here. Its okay if you see things differently from how I do, and I don't really see a point in arguing any longer. People just have different opionions and thats fine. Have a good rest of your day.

"Yes, that is how community feedback works"
no, game developers can't and shouldn't directly implement every piece of feedback from players, they should listen and decide the best course of action. just because players ask for it doesn't mean it's right.
"If a tower like the beast handler or mermonkey works better than a bloonchipper would have is debateable"
can you, right now, come up with three thematically different paths for a bloonchipper, both visually and mechanically? and no, bloon chipper but red instead of purple isn't visually different

"I don't really get why you would say that its good for top path, because that is the one you almost always lock in place anyway. "
202/302 is good for early game on multi lane maps, and there are definitely challenges i've done that relied on microing a 202. it's definitely not a useless upgrade, and there are definitely some even worse t1 upgrades.

"Even though it doesnt affect me personally I find it just generally pretty scummy for the price to be that high."
would you rather them charge money for the actual content they've put out for over half a decade? making paid dlc that doesnt affect anyone but the buyer so everyone can get free updates isn't scummy

wait. did he say anything about that last bit. just curious of course. i don't think he said anything about paid for updates

also on thaty bloonchipper idea... i made one with 3 different paths actually :D

Now mind you it is just an idea, and i got no idea if you would like the idea but i'll post a copy of it here below. It's my own take on the Bloonchipper with 3 paths anyways!

[N4V4ST4R]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/960090/discussions/0/4692280123603327858/

Here you go. a proof of concept that it can work but i am still adjusting it's final design but give it a read i reckon.

[Kunovega]

Originally posted by Juniper Seed:

ninja kiwi is farming lifelong fans for every last penny, as long as they're foolish enough to be swindled.

Enough is enough.

Their old business model allowed them to generate a ton of revenue from paid advertising that they could sell on their website alongside all of their free games.

Unfortunately with the death of flash games, their website no longer generates ad revenue so they've had to pivot and make more from directly in the games themselves.

Since they aren't a AAA studio pumping out expensive games, their game sale income isn't very much; which leaves them with the freemium and mtx models as their last resort to actually generate income.

I think if you look at how much the industry has changed and consider how much income they lost when their website and flash games could no longer sustain their revenue, you might think about how they could stay in business without in-game transactions when they don't have a lot of expensive games to sell.

[N4V4ST4R]

Originally posted by Kunovega:

Originally posted by Juniper Seed:

ninja kiwi is farming lifelong fans for every last penny, as long as they're foolish enough to be swindled.

Enough is enough.

Their old business model allowed them to generate a ton of revenue from paid advertising that they could sell on their website alongside all of their free games.

Unfortunately with the death of flash games, their website no longer generates ad revenue so they've had to pivot and make more from directly in the games themselves.

Since they aren't a AAA studio pumping out expensive games, their game sale income isn't very much; which leaves them with the freemium and mtx models as their last resort to actually generate income.

I think if you look at how much the industry has changed and consider how much income they lost when their website and flash games could no longer sustain their revenue, you might think about how they could stay in business without in-game transactions when they don't have a lot of expensive games to sell.

Excellent points! Very well put and from a perspective i didn't see coming. Yeah, completely forgot about the adverts on their old website since i didn't see em much while i used to play there. But i got some memory of those banner ads on the side and such.

[Elmok]

Originally posted by N4V4ST4R:

Its time for the grand finale sorry. i just have to say this politely but you are rude. you actually are rude and disregarded what i have said, openly and attacked me directly so i gotta stand my ground...

- ONE whining about tiny little things is not legit feedback, it's being a baby -

New ONE - It is not an argument and you sidestepped mine without giving a reason TO WHY my feedback is bad. you just say whining and complaining and that isn't a reason. Give me a reason, like it isn't true or something? Say my arguments aren't valid because i got something wrong...

Now... Do you have a reason to what i am saying isn't valid and not just saying it is whining. You can't say whining or complaining, you need a solid reason, you dodge this i win since you must have a stalwart reason for me since you berated and mocked me so much. Now provide my the best reason you got please.




- TWO so you're mad they implemented unique and original towers instead of the bloonchipper. what a crybaby take, just because you ask for it doesnt mean you have to get it. you know what else feels generic and similar to what other towers do? the bloon chipper. The beast handler alone is more unique mechanically and visually than the bloon chipper ever could be. -

New TWO - i can't say anything extra. Except i got something to shatter you completely in one hit with my own creation. i will SHOW YOU what this game is capable of with a Prototype New Tower concept just for this occasion to show you just how far NK can go with Tower Design and mechanics to Cure its Generic Nature.

Read the end please. thats all i can say. This is my only request please so you can truly see what NK could have as a new tower. I know it is rough and stuff, just mere words but imagine what you can really have... Please.




- WAH WAH the druid doesnt do what *you* want it to do. cry harder. -

- WAH WAH the alchemist doesnt do what *you* want it to do. the middle path is already the mutation path, you want two paths that do basically the same thing? cry harder. -

New THREE - I told you to stop being rude. Come up with an actual idea on what those towers could truly be so they aren't so well... Generic and kinda splashing into other towers.

Make me an idea please. you love throwing crap my way so put your money where your mouth is and actually show everyone what possible idea you can come up with for the Druid and Alchemist so they AREN'T like the current ones.

I won't shoot it down either, i want to see if you can actually make a new idea so it isn't just a Wind Wizard / Storm Wizard or Village wannabe / rehash in a way. Come on, i gave you ideas already... Earthen Druid with rocks and stone... Alchemists that Debuff and Weaken Bloons instead of Buffing Towers. you can come up with something from here. Please prove you got ideas.





- bro what EVEN are you talking about? towers having a base function with a t1 upgrade that improves it has been a STAPLE of all the btd games, including 5 and before. or have you forgotten all the ugprades that are just +1 pierce or "attacks a little bit faster". more crying over pointless little things. -

New FOUR - I didn't say i didn't say any of that about T1, you seem to well.... have ignored how bad Faster Swivel just is... Read my Prototype Tower Idea below like i said, you need to see what Towers and Upgrades can really be... Thats all i can say sorry.




- name one reason you need the dlc. name one piece of content gated behind the dlc. oh wait, you can't?

maybe stop crying about an optional purchase to further support a game you like and ill take you seriously -

Sigh... New FIVE - We don't need the DLC, i never said we did, you put words into my mouth and just lied. Openly.

TBH i can't say anything more since - you want DLCs to be Higher than the Base Game with what you are saying - See what i did there? i put words into your mouth like you did with me to attempt an argument... Except i am sorry for saying that because i needed an example of you doing it...

And well... i just can't stand by while a game just doesn't cost more than it's DLC stuff. we support by BUYING the PRICEY GAME and then the CHEAPER DLC. In fact and you can't fight this one...

Heres my Trump Card! - A High Price DLC won't sell as much OR equal to as high of a profit if it won't sell to BEGIN WITH BECAUSE of it's HIGHER PRICE than the GAME ITSELF, reducing support for their own game, their company and is likely leading to self sabotaging for no reason.

As i said, 30 Dollar Game with 20 Dollar DLC is just a standard business practice and if it works for Bethesda With Old World Blues DLC, Lonesome Road DLC and even Far Harbour, Nintendo and the Pokemon Crown Tundra And Isle Of Armour DLCs, Borderlands 2 and Captain Scarlet DLC As so many Examples. Then why not follow the trend of what works then? Wouldn't that lead to more profits and no self sabotaging their own support?

Aw NO! i got one more example of what worked and thats BTD5. people even still support that game to this day because the DLC stuff are just better priced. ANYONE AND EVERYONE can afford it and thats what should matter,

Here we go. this is a big bit IF people can't afford than why buy it? whats the point of even spending money when we just can't afford to support someone with so much. Maybe for a HIGH PRICE BASE GAME but just not for a DLC that in your own words... we don't have to buy it... SO riddle me this, why support what we can't afford to support, or afford to buy and we have no use for. since you did say we don't need it and as i am saying it is too high to AFFORD to SUPPORT THEM..? You have just destroyed yourself now.

As you said and said to me directly...

- Don't like it, Don't Buy It -

So guess what, i don't like it costing so much so i refuse to support them because as i said time and time again. It is just too expensive let alone too expensive for an avenue of supporting them. Likely Driving people away due to it being so expensive and now with me using your own words i finally seal up your own arguments.



Finally... If it works for the best then why change what works for the biggest game studios out there still doing this to this very day just to charge someone more for some ungodly reason just for side content rather than the base game just costing more. That you have called not essential in your own words and is just too high to afford for something not essential and too costly to buy to begin with so how is that going to be a good source of supporting them? Which in turn is driving support away. If every studio knows this than it seems like NK should follow what just works because the other companies are still making money by doing this the old fashioned way and exactly this, to this day and that is just a solid fact.





- I do NOT have to admit it was well designed, btd6 is way better designed in every aspect -

You forgot the context sadly. I was talking about how good the monetisation way in that regard sorry. i shoulda clarified that one so yeah. sorry for that bit.

I decided to ignore the last bit... just not essential. NOW PLEASE! read the idea below. You need to see what NK can do with the game. this idea and stuff is barely fleshed out and is just well... a rudimentary prototype you can hate as much as you want. i just wanna show what the game can do with it's upgrades, mechanics and so on ya know to not be as generic and stuff as i talked about so much.

"Now... Do you have a reason to what i am saying isn't valid and not just saying it is whining."
it's not valid because it's just whining. that's a reason.
"you need a solid reason, you dodge this i win"
here's a solid reason: you're complaining they didn't do every thing exactly to your tastes, rather than point out what they're doing wrong in a way that isn't hypocritical. that's not valid feedback, that's pointless whining.
example: you're complaining about faster swivel because it's basic, even though a lot of the towers have basic t1 upgrades, like the mortar's improved accuracy.
example: you're complaining about the alchemist doing similar things to other towers, only to design a "creative" tower that's almost a copy paste of other towers/heroes
example: you're complaining that "nobody asked for beast handler" even though nobody asked for any of the new towers we got, and yet, we have 4 completely new towers and the new towers are generally highly regarded

"Except i got something to shatter you completely in one hit with my own creation."
first off, coming up with a new idea doesnt disprove my argument. my argument is that the towers that NK added instead of bloon chipper are more unique visually and mechanically than bloon chipper would be, coming up with a random tower idea doesnt prove me wrong.
second off, your "new" idea isn't anywhere near as unique or original as the beast handler. . the top path switching weapons the same concept as rosalia but as a tower, hardly original lmao. the middle path is just bottom path alchemist but worse. the bottom path is just "become a bomb shooter" and "worse bottom path druid".
so much for a "shatter you completely in one hit" lmao

" Come up with an actual idea on what those towers could truly be so they aren't so well... Generic and kinda splashing into other towers. "
why would I? the towers are already unique and different enough from each other visually and mechanically.
just saying they're generic and splashing into other towers isnt an argument, especially when your tower idea is even more generic (a pirate tower when we already have a pirate tower) and splashing into other towers/heroes (rosalia copy, rtg but worse, poplust but worse)

"I didn't say i didn't say any of that about T1, you seem to well.... have ignored how bad Faster Swivel just is"
"i didn't complain about how bad and uncreative faster swivel is, you seem to have ignored how bad Fast Swivel just is"
you literally just proved that you did in fact make the point i was arguing against. that's not lying.
if it's not about how uncreative it is, it's about how bad it is... let's talk about some of the other bad t1 upgrades.. faster darts, increased accuracy, laser blasts, long life bananas,ez collect bananas, need I go on? a lot of towers have "bad" t1 upgrades


"And well... i just can't stand by while a game just doesn't cost more than it's DLC stuff. we support by BUYING the PRICEY GAME and then the CHEAPER DLC. In fact and you can't fight this one... "
Actually, lmao you're wrong and I can fight it lmao. Binding of Isaac, Repentance is 10 more dollars than its base game and has tens of thousands of reviews, so hundreds of thousands of players.
"Wouldn't that lead to more profits and no self sabotaging their own support?"
all those examples are cases where you're buying content to play the content. NK is selling higher priced dlc that adds QOL so they can keep producing FREE updates for the majority of players. Completely different situations.

The way NK is doing it, more players can get all of the game's content for a cheaper price, because instead of having to buy the game and the dlc to get all of the content, they only have to buy the base game, which is cheaper. you can't argue against that.

"Here we go. this is a big bit IF people can't afford than why buy it? "
then just don't buy it???? i don't get why this is so hard to grasp. if you can't afford to support nk by purchasing the dlc, then don't, and enjoy over half a decade and counting of free content updates.

"why support what we can't afford to support, or afford to buy and we have no use for. since you did say we don't need it and as i am saying it is too high to AFFORD to SUPPORT THEM..? You have just destroyed yourself now."
I didn't destroy myself, you just can't read simple sentences. the dlc is an optional way to support NK for those who can afford it and want to support NK. this way, people who cant afford it dont have to feel like theyre missing out on content or gameplay.

"If it works for the best then why change what works for the biggest game studios out there still doing this to this very day just to charge someone more for some ungodly reason just for side content rather than the base game just costing more."
I'm going to shatter your entire argument by pointing out the NK isnt just here to make money, they're also here to make a game that is enjoyable by as many people as possible, and that means keeping the base game and all of the game's content accessible at a cheaper cost and having optional dlc to support them for those who WANT to at a higher price.

"i just wanna show what the game can do with it's upgrades, mechanics and so on ya know to not be as generic and stuff as i talked about so much"
the game can be not as generic by implementing things that are ....already in the game?

[ninjawarrior.demon]

I don't agree

[ninjawarrior.demon]

These people that say Ninja Kiwi's the "Indie EA" are just jealous of Plants VS zombies' parent company being bad at their job.

[mason the touristmann]

yep its pretty damn ♥♥♥♥♥♥ bad but Just note that New Zealand the country I live in is pricey so that may be bit of a reason why like a Cadbury chocolate in NZ it "was" maybe a little under 3 now it I think almost 6 bucks like ♥♥♥♥ humanity is failing but yea its too not fun

[ninjawarrior.demon]

I don't know what that has to do with what I said but ok

[ninjawarrior.demon]

Also, how is the new btd 6 shop a bad idea?

[SwooopyG]

you could buy all bloons content ever, for less then what one person spends on Fifa ultimate team in one year.

this thread is a bad joke

[ninjawarrior.demon]

ok?

[jamesng323]

Do people here realize that making a computer game is a really, really, really expensive thing to do? It would not surprise me if Bloons Card Storm cost hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions of dollars to make. I know that it seems very cheap but underneath the surface, it takes a group of highly skilled people a very long time to make these things.

So, games can't be free due to this cost and ultimately the end consumer needs to pay for the massive expense that goes into making the game. Sadly, the ultimate consumer tends to be unwilling and unable to pay for the game judging by the posts in this thread.

Ninjakiwi needs to make back the money they spent making this game and if you don't contribute to it, then they tend to get a little angry and this will result in you waiting a long time for the necessary cards and heroes to fight in PvP. Consider it an encouragement for you to contribute what you rightly should to the cost of making BCS.

[SwooopyG]

btd6 is on sale for £3.50 right now and has promise of plenty more content to come.

[ninjawarrior.demon]

Yeah, also, if ninja kiwi is the "EA", would they listen to the community?