X-Rebirth: How the Build, Economy & Trade functions REALLY work (Hints/Rants/Guide)

[Fluke]

Here is the word document file link to read the document directly from my webserver. This is due to the poor forum code on steam's community discussion forums.

It saves me from spending HOURS modifying formatting in this post.

Updated: 01/06/2015 (Updated links as well)

http://www.paradox-system.com/MISC/xrebirth/X-Rebirth.doc

Document is not updated and is only for reference at this point.

Patch 3.10 has fixed a lot of the issues this document talks about; Although I still cannot agree with the snails pace of resupplying stations via AI yet. I think it should be faster.

Also, the cheat program that was noted in my document, still works with 3.10.

http://www.paradox-system.com/MISC/xrebirth/XRebirthSaveEditor.zip

Certain functions still do not however, or only function under certain circumstances; Refer to my document for more details regarding the cheat program... but, also note the money cheat on this program does work now as well in 3.10.

[Tijcker]

Originally posted by Ofan:

You would probably still have a problem with moeny eventually making its way into "dead end" transactions, assuming that in each faction bank account there was a finate amount of money only.You might have several station forming a production chain all owned by the same company, who isnt going to buy stuff of itself, so goods get passed for free betweem stations within the same faction, for no profit yet each stage of the production has ingredients it needs. The profit made by the last station in the chain that then sells to another faction would not be enough to cover manufactoring costs and almost everything in game would be made at a loss. You would have to radically change the amount of factions and ownership of stations to get it to work this way.

The factions would have to create money, by running phantom in game missions to earn low level cash. If there was some kind of central bank entity that was minting credits then that would be a little more fruitful, but its a closed system and the flow of cash/resources is not bidirectional, as you can see from how the game grinds to a halt. The economy cant really function like that, this is probably why they have patching magic wares into station build queus now. The planning of the economy on the most fundamental levels is borked

I don’t agree. The factions need to know what’s best for making money. If it’s low in credit it has to sell to another faction. That’s what AI is all about, it needs to know when to Invest in mining ships, when to protect a trade rout, and when to sell.

But at the moment there are no credits in game. No economy, credits you spend with NPCs on station just disappear. Wares found in boxes and space will just appear from nothing and then can be sold to an NPC with unlimited funds.

It should be more like a game of poker; each faction and NPC has a pot of money depending on the size of faction.

You can trade with them to gain their pot.

You can get better trade deals forcing them to sell at a loss.

You take their ships and wares.

You can fight and destroy them so they spend for more defences.

Wares in space should be created from old battles.

When a faction has nothing to sell, no credits, it’s in trouble; it cannot give out trade deals and then it comes to a complete stop.

Each faction should be able to sell ships and stations to recover from financial losses.

So by the end of the game, you have the bigger pot and own all the stations, you’ve removed all of the competition, either by buying them out or destroying them. It shouldn’t be far off from a game of monopoly. When you think you have won the game another gate is found with something even bigger on the other side.

[kingaires]

Originally posted by Tijcker:

Originally posted by Ofan:

You would probably still have a problem with moeny eventually making its way into "dead end" transactions, assuming that in each faction bank account there was a finate amount of money only.You might have several station forming a production chain all owned by the same company, who isnt going to buy stuff of itself, so goods get passed for free betweem stations within the same faction, for no profit yet each stage of the production has ingredients it needs. The profit made by the last station in the chain that then sells to another faction would not be enough to cover manufactoring costs and almost everything in game would be made at a loss. You would have to radically change the amount of factions and ownership of stations to get it to work this way.

The factions would have to create money, by running phantom in game missions to earn low level cash. If there was some kind of central bank entity that was minting credits then that would be a little more fruitful, but its a closed system and the flow of cash/resources is not bidirectional, as you can see from how the game grinds to a halt. The economy cant really function like that, this is probably why they have patching magic wares into station build queus now. The planning of the economy on the most fundamental levels is borked

I don’t agree. The factions need to know what’s best for making money. If it’s low in credit it has to sell to another faction. That’s what AI is all about, it needs to know when to Invest in mining ships, when to protect a trade rout, and when to sell.

But at the moment there are no credits in game. No economy, credits you spend with NPCs on station just disappear. Wares found in boxes and space will just appear from nothing and then can be sold to an NPC with unlimited funds.

It should be more like a game of poker; each faction and NPC has a pot of money depending on the size of faction.

You can trade with them to gain their pot.

You can get better trade deals forcing them to sell at a loss.

You take their ships and wares.

You can fight and destroy them so they spend for more defences.

Wares in space should be created from old battles.

When a faction has nothing to sell, no credits, it’s in trouble; it cannot give out trade deals and then it comes to a complete stop.

Each faction should be able to sell ships and stations to recover from financial losses.

So by the end of the game, you have the bigger pot and own all the stations, you’ve removed all of the competition, either by buying them out or destroying them. It shouldn’t be far off from a game of monopoly. When you think you have won the game another gate is found with something even bigger on the other side.

But then they would have to stop spawning ships at shipyards with no purpose, and they would have to find a purpose for all those trade items the AI can't use, like space suits, but still pay for. And that would require... you know, some thought and code.

[Tijcker]

Originally posted by kingaires:

But then they would have to stop spawning ships at shipyards with no purpose, and they would have to find a purpose for all those trade items the AI can't use, like space suits, but still pay for. And that would require... you know, some thought and code.

+1
Sure would

[Fluke]

Currently testing 1.24 rc3 beta patch. Will need to update the document with up to date information.

[Fluke]

The most exciting update I can say right now, is they finally added a resource list requirement for the current build project... which is awesome. This can be viewed at the ship dealer.

[darkone264]

being 6 days into my save game I have noticed something (I have 4 stations and at least 3 of each rahamus) I am able to trade everything from tier 1 resources (energy sells Liquids ore) to tier 2 stations those produce tier 2 goods that I sell to tier 3 stations to make things like fusion reactors quantom tubes ect those I sell to ship yards and URV mass lines which are used to produce Tier 4 goods (drones weapons) then I sell those to shipyards mainly (my stations as well as needed) and the npc and I produce ships working well in 1.23 this entire rotation of the economy takes roughly 24 hours to complete and I can make 50-80m every 8 hours with out selling cap ships my trade network goes from Albion to Mailstrum with most trade done at shipyards.

I have only cheated once, for some reason there was a mass shortage of cargolifters across the universe and they were not being produced because other drones filled uo the stock levels I used a save editer gave myself 300 cargo lifters 150alb 50 de 100om and that restarted production of ships and made the economy continue. right now I am dealing with quantom tubes and nividium cube shortages which I am slowly filling with my mining ships (only have 1 active) as for quantom tubes I need them in albion and they are in omy my ship tech fab is short on nividum cubes to produce more so it involves me doings 2 gate 6 jump trades which are only possible with the untimite fleet command mod. gargium ships seem to be able to move through gates with out the mod but they dont have jump drive so a trade takes a long time if its across the universe and there is a risk they will get destroyed.

[Fluke]

Originally posted by darkone264:

being 6 days into my save game I have noticed something (I have 4 stations and at least 3 of each rahamus) I am able to trade everything from tier 1 resources (energy sells Liquids ore) to tier 2 stations those produce tier 2 goods that I sell to tier 3 stations to make things like fusion reactors quantom tubes ect those I sell to ship yards and URV mass lines which are used to produce Tier 4 goods (drones weapons) then I sell those to shipyards mainly (my stations as well as needed) and the npc and I produce ships working well in 1.23 this entire rotation of the economy takes roughly 24 hours to complete and I can make 50-80m every 8 hours with out selling cap ships my trade network goes from Albion to Mailstrum with most trade done at shipyards.

I have only cheated once, for some reason there was a mass shortage of cargolifters across the universe and they were not being produced because other drones filled uo the stock levels I used a save editer gave myself 300 cargo lifters 150alb 50 de 100om and that restarted production of ships and made the economy continue. right now I am dealing with quantom tubes and nividium cube shortages which I am slowly filling with my mining ships (only have 1 active) as for quantom tubes I need them in albion and they are in omy my ship tech fab is short on nividum cubes to produce more so it involves me doings 2 gate 6 jump trades which are only possible with the untimite fleet command mod. gargium ships seem to be able to move through gates with out the mod but they dont have jump drive so a trade takes a long time if its across the universe and there is a risk they will get destroyed.

Ya, I need to update this document to account for 1.24. Lotsa stuff, and it seems trading is working much better now. Resource availability seems to have gone up etc.

I started a new game, to kind of work through the same process I followed in the document... Want to see what snags I catch along the way. So far only cheat I used was money cheat..

So we'll see how it goes, expect a new document after I have some time to get my game ramp'd up.

[ARandomPOS4(?)]

Is there a TLDR version and a summary of your take on fixing it?

[Ottomic]

First page summarizes the document pretty well, including how he thinks it should be fixed.

[kingaires]

Originally posted by ΨHellacioussΨ:

Is there a TLDR version and a summary of your take on fixing it?

Both X:Rebirth and X3 spawn ships from nothing. X3 does it a little more tastefully out of view of the player.

Both X:R and X3 remove things from the game at will of the Engine... X3 does this to stabilize the economy and open up opportunities

Only in X:R are ships tasked with the job to kill themselves

Only in X:R will your assets suddenly no longer be yours and disappear

Everything in X3 is used by the AI to produce or consume with the exception of weapons... most of the things you trade in Rebirth are not part of the economy at all. There is no need of the AI for space suits and such

You can actually build things in X3, in Rebirth depending on your patch you may or may not be able to.

That short enough?

[rman88]

its funny but isent the economy fake. as most of the ships are not used for said economy. in the past game every freighter was used to transport goods to specific nearby stations that need it. and some goods were harder to find then others.

this game has 2 economy. or 2 ways to make money. A you can sell random junk you steal. B you can, well to be honest the way they described it felt like a world of Warcraft quest. you go to a station, first you see the what you can buy. note you dont just go to a single port. you have to fly multiple ports to just find everything you can buy or sell. and then its like a quest. you buy the wears. fly with your capital ship to another sector. search that station. find out that you it either dose not take that item. or you wont make money off it. and fly to another station. do it again and again and again. rinse and repeat until you make a tiny bit of profit.

the last game all i had to do with buy trade software and hit CAG. let the guy level up over a few sectors then hit Universes trader. and all i had to do then was watch the credits flow in. in what way is the new way is better then the old.

[Xenrek]

my only real issue is that the shipyards are building ♥♥♥♥ for nothing, every ship that comes out of those that isnt directly player ordered, doesnt exist shortly after leaving. all the ships are generated in deep space and their literal respawn rates are wholly independent of shipyards and any faction's actual anything.

realistically, the economy does nothing except what directly involves the player, adn even that is pointless 90% of the time, as the economy is wholly insular around the player, no actual NPC involvement, whetehr in construction, trade, war, or anything else.

the increased spawn rates of pirates and xenon to distract us with "good fights" just 50% of the time point out more issues, and thats ♥♥♥♥ that gets broken/damaged/destroyed or otherwise interacted with either operating like it had never encountered that capital fleet that blew it to hell, or stays there damaged/destroyed forever.

the entire game is disconnected from its own mechanics, and is just a themepark of randomly spawned "gud fites" that have no impact on the greater game at all. may as well just plug in what NPC's you want spawned in an arena, then spawn in and kill them with your own premade fleet, and call that the campaign.

[Ineedtoplaymybacklog]

Originally posted by kingaires:

Originally posted by Tijcker:

I don’t agree. The factions need to know what’s best for making money. If it’s low in credit it has to sell to another faction. That’s what AI is all about, it needs to know when to Invest in mining ships, when to protect a trade rout, and when to sell.

But at the moment there are no credits in game. No economy, credits you spend with NPCs on station just disappear. Wares found in boxes and space will just appear from nothing and then can be sold to an NPC with unlimited funds.

It should be more like a game of poker; each faction and NPC has a pot of money depending on the size of faction.

You can trade with them to gain their pot.

You can get better trade deals forcing them to sell at a loss.

You take their ships and wares.

You can fight and destroy them so they spend for more defences.

Wares in space should be created from old battles.

When a faction has nothing to sell, no credits, it’s in trouble; it cannot give out trade deals and then it comes to a complete stop.

Each faction should be able to sell ships and stations to recover from financial losses.

So by the end of the game, you have the bigger pot and own all the stations, you’ve removed all of the competition, either by buying them out or destroying them. It shouldn’t be far off from a game of monopoly. When you think you have won the game another gate is found with something even bigger on the other side.

But then they would have to stop spawning ships at shipyards with no purpose, and they would have to find a purpose for all those trade items the AI can't use, like space suits, but still pay for. And that would require... you know, some thought and code.

Boom headshot

[ARandomPOS4(?)]

I am confident modders will handle these issues though like they did for X3.

[Ottomic]

Originally posted by ΨHellacioussΨ:

I am confident modders will handle these issues though like they did for X3.

Rebirth is proving to be incredibly difficult to mod. For a bunch of reasons:

- XML language.
- Hard coded actions and scripts.
- Lack of oficially supported mod tools (3 months after release)
- (and this is *pure speculation*) the fact that this game was originally developed for a platform where modding is nonexistant.

X3 was a PC game. Everything was easier to mod.