Other great bullet hells?

[Random Reference #98]

So I'm really loving this as the first bullet hell I've actually sat down and put some time into. I've played plenty of shmups but usually not bullet hells so I was wondering what are some other bullet hells that would be worth checking out?

Please don't suggest Ikaruga, it's already on my list.

[Fraggoth]

Hibachi a écrit :

Yep, that's part of the issue too.
And the game's still really difficult.
It's kind of like have your ass kicked with a slipper. Repeatedly.

I friggin' LOVE this. So true, on so many levels.

That said, I still love me some Ikaruga, though a lot of that might be Nostalgia from when me and a few friends would play it together on the Gamecube.

[Warp]

Hibachi a écrit :

I may be wrong, but as far as I know, Ikaruga doesn't feature this and you play exactly the same things over and over again.

Also, I like pinball scoring and in any case, having absolutely no chance to rack some points 'cause I don't know each and every ennemy encountered is a turn off.

Almost every section of Ikaruga has "bonus" enemies that appear by destroying other enemies quickly with a lot of risk/reward. There's also twitchy parts and some randomization, especially stage 3.

The combo system is both strict and lenient. Strict in that it encourages you to shoot precisely and plan routes, but lenient in that it's easier to ignore enemies than most shmups and skip hard combos without any cost to your multiplier, giving you a lot of choice to pick and choose your scoring route on an intermediate level as you're learning the game. Contrast with Dodonpachi's all or nothing combo system that times out under your feet.

[Michel Baie]

SPG a écrit :

Almost every section of Ikaruga has "bonus" enemies that appear by destroying other enemies quickly with a lot of risk/reward. There's also twitchy parts and some randomization, especially stage 3.

The combo system is both strict and lenient. Strict in that it encourages you to shoot precisely and plan routes, but lenient in that it's easier to ignore enemies than most shmups and skip hard combos without any cost to your multiplier, giving you a lot of choice to pick and choose your scoring route on an intermediate level as you're learning the game. Contrast with Dodonpachi's all or nothing combo system that times out under your feet.

There's variation in Ikaruga, really? Allright, if you say so, my mistake.

But seriously, learning Ikaruga implies a long time more or less seeing ennemy waves coming and asking yourself something like that:
" - Should I shoot them ? How many white ships did I get? two? Why the heck is there only blacks ones here? Oh, here's a white. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I also got the other white ship behind it, now I have to get two more. While friggin black ships are firing."
And sooner or later, letting ennemies come and go because you want you keep your multiplier inevitably fill the screen with black and white shots.

Ikaruga : counting up to three have never been this hard.

Beginner's whining? Probably. But I don't like seeing points fly away while I'm busy thinking of how I should have ended last section.

Dodonpachi combo has a really fast timer but at least you dont have to restrain to shoot ennemies. Fire away, and learn where to use your laser instead of the shot to keep the chain going. And maybe where are the bees.
No shielding (well, almost), no counting, just destruction.
You will get a really bad score at the end while you're learning but the game doesn't constantly remind you you're playing it wrong : no suicide bullets when you should've used the other shot, no constant underscoring (even beginners will get a good combo in some sections), and no grade at the end of the stage.
And in the last Dodonpachi, your combo only lost up to 33% of its base value if you're late to destroy another thing.

Anyway, all that doesn't aswer the question why Ikaruga has so much success.
So, as someone who visibly played and loved it, what do you like about it?
It can be the learning curve, nobody's gonna troll you...
Getting better IS fun and is essentially why people keep playing shmups. I just don't like it in this peticuliar game.

[ZNT]

Hibachi a écrit :

Almost every section of Ikaruga has "bonus" enemies that appear by destroying other enemies quickly with a lot of risk/reward. There's also twitchy parts and some randomization, especially stage 3.

what sucks is that memorization doesn't carry over all versions which makes comparing scores between versions near impossible. If you took the effort to create a 1CC run on the arcade/gc/dc versions they don't translate smoothly to the XBL/PC versions of the game and vice versa. I was pretty disappointed when the timing threw off my easy and normal 1CCs due to the differences in spawn times. plus... screw analogue controls in modern shmups like the new ikaruga versions and sine mora. makes playing with a stick kind of awkward.

I would've been pissed if I memorized the 360/PC version and then it doesn't translate correctly on the PCB version I play in my local arcade. definitely not as accurate as the GC/DC versions.

Hibachi a écrit :

Anyway, all that doesn't aswer the question why Ikaruga has so much success.

the critics that have overly praised it is one of the contributing factors to it's popularity/success. also the fact that treasure hasn't really been developing anything new and all they've been doing is re-releasing/porting old content over and over again (though Sin & Punishment: SS was my favorite game of last gen). It's what I'm scared of for CAVE... especially after how everyone complains that their old games should be ported to PC or PS3, etc.. instead of them focusing their efforts on new IPs.

[Michel Baie]

CAVE have always took the time to re-release their games. There are multiple version of the same games even on PCB, and then there's console versions (PS2 and Xbox 360).
Lately, they did some of them on IOS and Android devices. It's not that bad by the way. It's not the same feeling than an arcade cabinet obviously, but the controls generally doesn't suck and they often add some new modes.

Their last one (DDP SaiDaiOuJou, Xbox 360) was my favorite shmup just before I discovered Crimzon.

I liked Sin And Punishement SS too. That's a really good boss marathon, and also, one of the few games that justified the existence of the Wii. In the same niche Treasure did Alien Soldier on Genesis/Megadrive, one of my favorite game when I was little.

[Random Reference #98]

Hibachi a écrit :

CAVE have always took the time to re-release their games. There are multiple version of the same games even on PCB, and then there's console versions (PS2 and Xbox 360).
Lately, they did some of them on IOS and Android devices. It's not that bad by the way. It's not the same feeling than an arcade cabinet obviously, but the controls generally doesn't suck and they often add some new modes.

Their last one (DDP SaiDaiOuJou, Xbox 360) was my favorite shmup just before I discovered Crimzon.

I liked Sin And Punishement SS too. That's a really good boss marathon, and also, one of the few games that justified the existence of the Wii. In the same niche Treasure did Alien Soldier on Genesis/Megadrive, one of my favorite game when I was little.

My biggest problem with the Android ones I've tried(Espgaluda 2, Dodonpachi Resurrection) is the controls but not for the reason I expecected. They actually work surprisingly well and offer allot of precision IMO, but that's the problem, they are too precise. If I swipe my finger from one side to the other as quickly as possible the character moves just as fast, way faster than they would be able to move with normal controls.
I really wish they had just used a virtual control stick or at least made it an option.

[Michel Baie]

I just consider them non standard versions, and don't compare scoring and progression with the original games. The system they employed for Android version isn't true to the arcades, but at least it works pretty well.

I prefer that than a virtual joystick (you never now what you're doing with theses, and once your fingers get a bit sweaty, it's a pain to move the intended way) or a thing that cap your speed whatever move you make.

But yes, optionnal virtual joystick would have been fine.

[Random Reference #98]

Hibachi a écrit :

I just consider them non standard versions, and don't compare scoring and progression with the original games. The system they employed for Android version isn't true to the arcades, but at least it works pretty well.

I prefer that than a virtual joystick (you never now what you're doing with theses, and once your fingers get a bit sweaty, it's a pain to move the intended way) or a thing that cap your speed whatever move you make.

But yes, optionnal virtual joystick would have been fine.

That's fair, and other than the super speed it does work perfectly well. Personally I like a virtual stick but maybe It's just something I've gotten used to from other games and I guess if I really want different virtual controls and a more true to arcade experience there's always the MAME versions anyway but the option would have been nice. Never good to limit people's control choices on a platform that already limits them.

[ZNT]

Hibachi a écrit :

CAVE have always took the time to re-release their games. There are multiple version of the same games even on PCB, and then there's console versions (PS2 and Xbox 360).
Lately, they did some of them on IOS and Android devices. It's not that bad by the way. It's not the same feeling than an arcade cabinet obviously, but the controls generally doesn't suck and they often add some new modes.

Their last one (DDP SaiDaiOuJou, Xbox 360) was my favorite shmup just before I discovered Crimzon.

I liked Sin And Punishement SS too. That's a really good boss marathon, and also, one of the few games that justified the existence of the Wii. In the same niche Treasure did Alien Soldier on Genesis/Megadrive, one of my favorite game when I was little.

If you don't still own it, you can get alien soldier part of the j-ps2 sega ages treasure collection and it's still loads of fun.

My main point being that CAVE's arcade division was closed with a heavier focus on mobile applications, and all people keep spamming their facebook with is "port your games to PS3 or PC!" when it should be the fans supporting CAVE and not the other way around. Ports are better than nothing, but I'd hate to see for CAVE to rely on those much like Treasure has been doing. I know m2 dangun feveron port and the ibara/ibara kuro were considerations but they chose mushihimesama HD (which was already ported to ps2..but to be fair it's one of the best cave ports in terms of quality). I'm still hoping for those since the ibara kuro board is literally $1200-2000 and I can't justify the price tag like I did for the international feveron and regular ibara boards. That or give us a deathsmiles III :)

I was also really hoping the Capcom arcade classics vote held last year (http://www.capcom.co.jp/game/public/fan/statistic/result/1025?redirect_stop=1) would've led to a new arcade compliation too so people could experience the awesomeness of progear (it won)... which is my absolute favorite CAVE shmup - awesome bullet cancelling gem chaining scoring system, bullet spreads/flows similar to ketsui, and a steampunk theme which really hasn't been recreated in any of cave's other games.

saidaioujou was a buncha fun but I never stuck with it since dodonpachi games never clicked with me. I'm a huge Yagawa fan with my favorites of all time being Raizing's Armed Police Batrider or Battle Garegga.

[Michel Baie]

I prefer Akai Katana to Progear, just for the arranged 360 version whitch is a lot of pinball scoring fun once you get the system.
I never understood the Progear one.
It have something to do with switching weapon at a certain timing to augment the value of point items, while cancelling bullets by destroying the ennemy who fire them... but I don't know much more than that.

I never played Armed Police Batrider or even Garegga. Launching them now, they're still nice but a bit on the "why are the bullets so little and the same color as the rest" side.

... Deathsmiles 3, yes, or how about a whole new license? I highly doubt you can get a boss ridiculous enough to top Tyrannosatan and Satan Claws...

Also, Deathsmiles 2 was my first 1CC in arcades. After something like 3 tries... So, not really an achievemnt I know, but still :)

[ZNT]

I love akai katana too though I admittedly haven't played the arrange. I only played the arcade mode until the 1CC and then quit after that. I've read that it's much better than the main game much like how Pink Sweets arrange is better than the arcade version. I've been meaning to pick it back up, but I've been playing Ibara lately and have been struggling to see stage 4 lmbo.

Progear is basically herding enemy bullets on top of other enemies, and killing those enemies (with the bullets on top of them) with your regular shot to cancel out the bullets and turn them into gems. The more bullets on top of the enemy you kill it the higher the tier your gems will be. you basically work your way up to the large platinum gem before you use locked shot to kill an enemy to "cash-in"... and you typically want to cash in on an enemy that has a crapload of bullets on top of it to get more points. you can also max out your gem meter and cash in multiple times on larger enemies that have different damageable parts. after a couple hundred hours on the board, I have the 1-ALL down but I've never been able to meet the loop requirements. It's not really a fan favorite (a lot of people on the shmup forums dislike it), but it's my personal favorite.

For your bullet complaint (which I can sympathize with after getting screwed so many times) Battle Garegga has an option on the saturn port to turn them into different colored circles. APB and Garegga are also extremely difficult if you don't manage rank. The Bat trilogy (including battle bakraid) was the first release(s) from Yagawa to employ his notorious rank system which he uses in Ibara (said to be the sequel of battle garegga), Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork. People actually despise his rank system (even moreso than DDPDOJ chaining), but I think it's an acquired taste. It means if you pick up a crapload of stuff, you're going to jack up the rank too high and you won't be able to get very far. You should be alright if you avoid all small power ups, and use large power ups sparingly. Stick to medal chaining/scoring so you can score high enough for the extends to suicide to reduce rank. And then bomb fragments of course which you will want to spam bombs for different scoring opportunities (hoarding bombs and lives will also jack up the rank). Garegga also has one of my favorite soundtracks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_UTj1Q-2kM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUYfnwSqwFo (this is from the sega saturn arrange version)


DSII 1CC still isn't an easy feat... especially for a first-timer 1 credit clear. Only reason I feel like DSIII would be a fantastic idea is because DS is one of the best selling IPs for CAVE, though a completely new IP would be ideal.

[Michel Baie]

buttload a écrit :

Progear is basically herding enemy bullets on top of other enemies, and killing those enemies (with the bullets on top of them) with your regular shot to cancel out the bullets and turn them into gems. The more bullets on top of the enemy you kill it the higher the tier the gem will be. you basically work your way up to the large platinum gem before you use locked shot to kill an enemy to "cash-in"... and you typically want to cash in on an enemy that has a crapload of bullets on top of it to get more points. you can also max out your gem meter and cash in multiple times on larger enemies that have different damageable parts. after a couple hundred hours on the board, I have the 1-ALL down but I've never been able to meet the loop requirements.

Weren't there also two types of points items, gems and rings? changing shots allows you to, well, "cash in" and changes the type of items...
So you make gems appera with normal shots, then go to lock and cash in gems, stay in lock to make rings appear, go back to normal shot, cashing again any rings on the field, all the while augmenting the base value of each items, with gems and ring changing appearance...

What I never understood is why points value sometimes go up and sometimes go down...

[ZNT]

it's kind of weird to explain, but you're technically right. When your killing enemies with shot you're ranking up the "rings", but the higher you rank up the "rings" the less and less they look like rings.. haha. the spikey platinum things at the bottom of this picture are the highest ranked regular shot items which would then be the highest scoring gem if you used locked shot
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/1/11376/1346724-progear022.png

a little trick is when you hold down the lock shot button, it actually displays the type of scoring gem you would receive on the bottom left hand side if you're playing as player 1.

If you're talking about the scoring multiplier going up and down, it's probably because you used a bomb. When you use a bomb to cancel out bullets and turn them into gems, it actually reduces your scoring multiplier greatly. If you never use a bomb, you start cranking the multiplier up in addition to 2 x bonuses that you start receiving after the 2nd stage boss.

the easiest example of the scoring method is 0:32 through 0:36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHgnHqyfaKI#t=32

he's playing as player 2 and notice next to 1528 in the bottom right is a metal ring? so when the large plane shoots the larger bullets and the bullets are on top of the tanks moving on the bridge, he uses his regular shot to kill the tanks and turn those bullets into the largest platinum "ring" item. you'll notice that the metal ring in the bottom right has then turned into the gigantic platinum gem and he's ready to cash in. Directly after the large plane shoots a 2nd time he uses locked shot on the tiny hidden tank underneath the plane to turn all those large bullets into the highest scoring item.

[Random Reference #98]

Anyone have any experience with Super Killer Hornet? It's currently on sale for dirt cheap but the reviews on the store page are mostly negative. Thoughts?

[Mr. Stimpson]

Random Reference #49 a écrit :

Anyone have any experience with Super Killer Hornet? It's currently on sale for dirt cheap but the reviews on the store page are mostly negative. Thoughts?

I haven't played it because of the inclusion of the math problems that increase your score. I'm not terrible at math, but I'm not good enough at it for it to come fluently enough for me to be able to concentrate on bullet-patterns.

Maybe that's an issue for some? I'd also like to know some input on SKH if anyone has the time.