+ THE GREAT BALANCE CONVERSATION +

[Pixeljam Games]

Discuss the eternal struggle of nerfs and buffs here.

[Napalm Sushi]

Originally posted by Grackopolis:

I 100% agree with this! I absolutely hate how the same enemies get harder and harder to shoot. I'd rather see more enemies w the same hp than fewer that keep mysteriously getting thicker and thicker skin at a faster rate than my own weaponry improves.

If they are going to scale (which I understand as a way of preventing eternal runs among expert players), I'd rather see more different aspects of them scale more gradually rather than just their HP ratcheting up, like movement speed, projectile speed and rate of fire.

[Grackopolis]

Originally posted by Napalm Sushi:

If they are going to scale (which I understand as a way of preventing eternal runs among expert players), I'd rather see more different aspects of them scale more gradually rather than just their HP ratcheting up, like movement speed, projectile speed and rate of fire.

Exactly! Would add more variety in the game play for sure.

[OmegaBOOM]

Noticing some people mention my biggest grief with this game. Enemy scaling. I just don't think it's a very fun or creative mechanic to increase enemy HP slightly each day to increase difficulty.. I'd rather see more enemies on screen. Or at least clear level distinction between scaled up enemies so they're another colour and it's very clear they're the level 2 or level 3 form of themselves and so on. If they then give much more points as well the challenge would feel more rewarding.
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To put it in another way: It's like there's a "FUN-Graph" for the game: As my guns are getting more and more powerful and I can stay ahead of the enemy curve and keep scoring some +1 upgrade screens, it's more and more fun to play the game. But when I get to that peak, where I can't upgrade my guns anymore and I can sense that for each day my guns are struggling more and more to kill boss enemies... That's when the FUN-Graph starts dropping drastically...

I don't have a suggestion on how change this, but will try to think of one. Well done with the game so far it is amazing.

[Grackopolis]

OmegaBOOM and others have said it well. If you want to keep your fans engaged, it may prove better to not scale game difficulty so quickly. I don't know how others feel about it...but I, for one, like to feel like I can mow enemies down easily...if at least for a few days ;D. I dig the idea of ramping up enemy numbers or changing attack patterns/enemy types, as opposed to just increasing hp of existing hordes. But this is all redundant prattle on my part.

There's just something so very satisfying about carving a path through countless enemies. ...But then, this has all already been said. Just bare in mind that if quantity changes, then some buffing will need to be done with things like arc flail and flare so that more chaining can be done. Otherwise, a nuke would become the only AOE of choice if other changes aren't made,...and without those additional changes it would limit gameplay variety much more.

BTW...what's so "super secret" about the super secret mode ;D??? I still haven't found a difference...Or is it a seeeecret. :D

[Napalm Sushi]

Yeah, I definitely don't think enemy scaling should start at all until the cycle of new enemy types, new enemy formations and increased enemy numbers is exhausted and the game has reached the "endgame" phase. The aforementioned are all far more intuitive and satisfying ways of driving up the difficulty while they're still applicable (I understand that enemy numbers would still need an ultimate ceiling for performance reasons).

And as I said before, after that point, I'd rather see scaling done with more things than just HP.

[Ozzuneoj]

Originally posted by Napalm Sushi:

Originally posted by Ozzuneoj:

...I thought I'd still get arc flares or something, but this also never showed up.

Arc flares are an Operation Hermit-specific upgrade. If you're just not using nukes without Operation Hermit, you're basically just playing a rather brutal self-imposed challenge mode.

Right, that's certainly what it felt like after the fact. An actual visible tech-tree would alleviate this guess work and time wasting. As it is, it just feels like I'm not getting any useful upgrade options day after day.

Perhaps something to add more variety would be to add progressively large point bonuses each day that you aren't using nukes, even if you're just plain out of them and not generating any. If the game rewards you once for not using nukes, why not continue to do so?

... and an actual tech-tree. Seriously. Let us see what path we'll be taking with each upgrade we choose.

Also, one other observation I have is that as soon as things start getting tough you basically lose all of your point bonuses (because perfect rounds become near impossible) and the game is effectively over. Unless you can maintain those point bonuses or have already picked the one-best-way to do everything, it feels like there is no way to keep up with the difficulty ramp.

... but then, I guess I'm back to wishing there was just a different game mode all together with some persistence. I feel like if I ever hit 30+ days I'll just stop playing because it will take me so many hours to get beyond that reliably.

[Grackopolis]

+1 for the viewable tech tree. I don't like the idea of the entire tree being visible out of the gate. Part of the fun is discovering the new upgrades! BUT! I think it would really be great to show a tech tree with all the branches in full view, but with ??? in the branches until you have unlocked/discovered it. Once you have discovered a branch, it should then remain visible.
Lastly, it would be wonderful to view the tree at any time from the game pause/menu as an option. Once you enter it it should not only show you what you have/haven't unlocked, but should "light up" the branches that you currently have unlocked in your current run (if you are in the middle of one). How cool would that be?

[RoccoErnest]

"Also, one other observation I have is that as soon as things start getting tough you basically lose all of your point bonuses (because perfect rounds become near impossible) and the game is effectively over. Unless you can maintain those point bonuses or have already picked the one-best-way to do everything, it feels like there is no way to keep up with the difficulty ramp."

Once you get to a certain point at wave 30ish where no new upgrades seem to come out, not having enough points doesn't matter.

Maybe a feature could be you can spend an upgrade point (once the upgrades run out) on a one-time bonus, like "Repair current shields".

Although I really think the easiest never-ending upgrade should basically be ones to screw with numbers. Longer fireball? It goes to 30% now; why not offer 1-2% add ons. Or a simple "increase weapon damage by 2%" and you choose the weapon.

[Grackopolis]

All good points RoccoErnest. ...but then what do you suppose should be done once new tree paths are created? Devs are definitely going to be adding more upgrades so we don't bottom out so quickly.

With that in mind, Ozzuneoj, has a valid point that in late game currently it becomes incredibly difficult to get bonuses! And I have noticed this: that as the game progresses it also requires much more points to lvl up. The required "xp" as it were is not the same. And since your only xp seems to be based strictly off the bonus system, late game you will be focused solely on survival instead of bonuses and upgrades. ...unless something in the current system changes.

That said, I 100% agree with you that if enemy difficulty keeps ramping up that we should AT LEAST be offered some simple recurring upgrades that allow us to somewhat keep up with the neighbors :D

[eukariote_]

I've made it to about 4 weeks with a score of 334,000 and what killed me was usually those invincible rainbow nukes enemies drop later on

[Plant]

My only major complaint with balance is that runs take too long for me, I'd say between 45 minutes and an hour. I wish they would take between 30 and 45 minutes, so it's not such a time commitment.

[Napalm Sushi]

Originally posted by Plant:

My only major complaint with balance is that runs take too long for me, I'd say between 45 minutes and an hour. I wish they would take between 30 and 45 minutes, so it's not such a time commitment.

I'd much rather see saving between levels as a solution to that issue.

[OmegaBOOM]

Why does Hermit mode not have Twin or Triple gun? It's pretty boring without. Honestly Hermit mode seems so nerfed compared to regular nuke and gun-run. The gun keeps being behind on it's level of powerfulness and the flares takes a really long time to become a valid choice for keeping on top of enemy waves. So you end up being constantly behind on getting +1 upgrades, especially in early mid-game and throughout mid-game. It just doesn't happen that often compared to regular runs that you get a +1 upgrade in my experience...

[Guyzaiver]

Currently my experience is that unless you're picking one option and sticking to it exclusively you're going to fall behind pretty quickly and fail. I feel like laser towers in particular are too weak to bother with and could use a significant boost in durability or some other drastic improvement (like placing 2 at a time or giving them a major damage boost).

I've been mainly running hermit and managed to get to day 30 by focusing exclusively on gun and flail but I feel like I only managed that because I got lucky with the RNG and the upgrades getting offered. It would be nice to be able to branch out and mix/match options without feeling like I'm crippling myself.

Overall having research paths take a day without granting a benefit seems to be the most obvious problem to me. Maybe having research trees be a separate choice from the actual upgrades might work better?

As other people have said, the difficulty spikes to impossible very abruptly around day 25 or so. At that point it felt like I only survive due to luck and all too often there's simply no way to fight back. I get that this is the point, but a more gradual ramp up would be more enjoyable.

[Grackopolis]

OUCH! Problem in hermit mode with upgrade options. Ran into an issue more than once where once I had shields fail my upgrade trees were limited to ONLY shield options....despite having plenty of path openings for other things (railgun, cobalt, automation, etc.) I was specifically holding off on shield regeneration, but even so, it offered none of the above, (even after 3 rerolls) :(((