"You are not this guy" is an illusion

[mintjam]

QUICK EDIT: I understand that we are playing EARLY early access. My criticism is coming from a place that wants the best for this game. This game is sick as hell dude.

TL;DR at end

Maybe it's just the early state of the AI but I realized that being a weak little scav boy is an illusion.

My first few hours with this game I was terrified of firing my gun because I figured it would alert everyone and their mother who are next to invincible. After watching other's gameplay on youtube and twitch I realized that this just isn't true. Now I go into any map with 510 9x19 ammo, a PPSH, and 10 adv med packs and get 20+ kills, HKs in that count, without running out of ammo or meds. Every run is insane profit especially with some of the quests (looking at you thief in the night + pull plug/data heist/whatever the mech sabotage quest is called).

At 40ish hours I go in looking for a fight and it doesn't feel as fun. I don't feel like I need to wait and watch passing patrols to plan my next step. Now I feel like I can fight patrols back to back as if I am better than "this guy".

I want to feel weak, I want to feel like any mistake could cost me my rig contents. Before realizing how easily I can take down enemies this game felt like a horror game, like if I'm found out it's "GG go again lol". Personally I don't like being able to optimize my return from raid so easily. I want to put everything I have on the line in hopes of getting some goodies.

I figure this is hard to balance but like right now we are super soldiers. Maybe this will change if the AI and spawn frequency/locations get updated since those are wack as hell right now too.

TL;DR:
I feel like a super soldier that could single-handedly end the AI war but this game feels more fun when I thought I was a frail NEET who has never stepped foot out of the basement who was forced to fight for humanity's survival.

[lowBlow]

Yup, pretty much. you end up as a super soldier.

[Ghost]

For me, it was simply having a suppressor that made a big difference to survival.

I guess it depends on how far in you are. Low XP char, low xp gun with next to no mods often means engagements result in flatline.

Character choice may play a part. Scav girl is going to drop easier compared to Bagman.

It also depends what you're engaging.

Extraction waves of Zomborgs and drones. No issue. A squad of lowly grunts, again, easy enough.

A squad of Elites and an Officer? If I'm lucky, and it's a squad of 3. Any group bigger or stronger, and they're such sponges, chances are they're dropping me first.
I'm only prestige 10 on my Shaman, with modded guns.
Maybe it's easier closer to max, but at the moment there's no way I feel like a super soldier.

[mintjam]

Originally posted by lowBlow:

Yup, pretty much. you end up as a super soldier.

You really do. I feel like the NPC AI is the main culprit since part of the super soldier feeling comes from them not being able to open doors and funneling them down a hallway or when the whole patrol is aggro and then suddenly in inspection mode (red diamond vs question mark) after you kill one guy in the group.

I do think that if the AI was improved and way more aggressive the super solider feeling would go down a bunch. Like instead of one guy coming around the corner at a time it's all of them filling the hall with bullets.

I feel like firing your gun should be your last resort. It should be effective enough to let you get away if you're skillful but shouldn't let you mow down patrols one after the other

[desuTHICC]

I was feeling the same way as you at the start. Terrified. But after awhile and equiping a silencer, its still kind of tough, but I can still manage.

After awhile I don;t get that sense of dread anymore. The game is still early access so I'm sure the devs are working on this. As it stands this is a very base bone game as expected of early access.

[mintjam]

Originally posted by Ghost:

For me, it was simply having a suppressor that made a big difference to survival.

I guess it depends on how far in you are. Low XP char, low xp gun with next to no mods often means engagements result in flatline.

Character choice may play a part. Scav girl is going to drop easier compared to Bagman.

It also depends what you're engaging.

Extraction waves of Zomborgs and drones. No issue. A squad of lowly grunts, again, easy enough.

A squad of Elites and an Officer? If I'm lucky, and it's a squad of 3. Any group bigger or stronger, and they're such sponges, chances are they're dropping me first.
I'm only prestige 10 on my Shaman, with modded guns.
Maybe it's easier closer to max, but at the moment there's no way I feel like a super soldier.

Unless I just missed it I don't think you can put a silencer on a PPSH (currently at lvl 16), if you can that would be tight.

Low EXP characters may play a part but when you have access to some of the better weapons the game becomes trivial (though like in my previous reply and OP that the AI probably plays a part in that)

My main point is that even with making choices that make you tankier or deal more damage the game allows you to become very strong. It allows you to break the illusion that was present that we aren't "this guy". Every game I've played in my life I am "this guy" and I don't want to be "this guy". I want to be an unseen shadow water goblin.

Additionally I understand that we are playing an extremely early build of the game and my concerns might not exist in the full release. I made this post because I want to give the devs feedback since they seem receptive. Genuinely I want this game to succeed and for the original vision presented to us to be fulfilled.

[mintjam]

Originally posted by desuTHICC:

I was feeling the same way as you at the start. Terrified. But after awhile and equiping a silencer, its still kind of tough, but I can still manage.

After awhile I don;t get that sense of dread anymore. The game is still early access so I'm sure the devs are working on this. As it stands this is a very base bone game as expected of early access.

Absolutely, it's a super bare bones build of the game which is crazy to me since it's still so good.

Like I said in the OP it could just be the current state of the enemy NPC AI. I think if they didn't give up so quickly it could feel a lot more punishing. I LOVE this game, Fun Dog really gave us something special and I'm happy that we got to play it so early

[John Q. Helldiver]

Its still got a ways to go for early access... but I agree. After around 2 hours of getting into the game for the first time I realized I am a unstoppable killing machine.. and then i started to use bagman with the painless LMG and the grenade launcher and now I just sprint across the map popping heads. The only things that slow me down are the larger mech units but even the grabber is very very easy to evade as his pathing is terrible and you can easily shake him.

Sitting at 10 million credits and over 500 units of water. Think im more or less done until they get some more polish in and make the game a bit more into what they originally intended because its basically just 3rd person post apocalypse call of duty atm.

[ori]

How do you feel like there's one way that the game can balance this out essentially the more you actively are getting in the way of the other groups the other groups will start to ignore each other and instead go after you and you'll also start to face off against stronger enemies alongside a new stat that I'm calling threat every character has a base threat level essentially depending on the weapons you bring will alter your threat level the higher your threat level is the more enemies will target you instead of each other for example if you have a low threat level say 5 compared to a tank which has a threat level of 10 enemies will focus on the tank first however if you have better weapons than the tank itself say a threat level of 15 versus the tanks 10 enemies will go after you instead essentially the more you actively show yourself as a threat the more enemies will go after you alongside a new class of enemy I'm calling scavenger hunters they are designed to go after you in particular to be expected they're extremely dangerous this is mainly just something I would suggest to the devs but this will do

[mintjam]

Originally posted by ori:

How do you feel like there's one way that the game can balance this out essentially the more you actively are getting in the way of the other groups the other groups will start to ignore each other and instead go after you and you'll also start to face off against stronger enemies alongside a new stat that I'm calling threat every character has a base threat level essentially depending on the weapons you bring will alter your threat level the higher your threat level is the more enemies will target you instead of each other for example if you have a low threat level say 5 compared to a tank which has a threat level of 10 enemies will focus on the tank first however if you have better weapons than the tank itself say a threat level of 15 versus the tanks 10 enemies will go after you instead essentially the more you actively show yourself as a threat the more enemies will go after you alongside a new class of enemy I'm calling scavenger hunters they are designed to go after you in particular to be expected they're extremely dangerous this is mainly just something I would suggest to the devs but this will do

This feels like the longest run-on sentence that I've ever read since I can't find any punctuation but I think I get the gist of what you're saying and I'm so with it.

Personally I don't think that the gear you bring in to a raid should be considered but I do think that the idea of threat to a faction sounds cool as hell. Like if you kill 10+ Europa soldiers then it would make sense that you're a known threat to Europa.

Honestly this is an awesome idea that I would love to see implemented since it would discourage going full rambo especially if the Ai was harder to exploit.

[Ghost]

Originally posted by mintjam:

Originally posted by Ghost:

For me, it was simply having a suppressor that made a big difference to survival.

I guess it depends on how far in you are. Low XP char, low xp gun with next to no mods often means engagements result in flatline.

Character choice may play a part. Scav girl is going to drop easier compared to Bagman.

It also depends what you're engaging.

Extraction waves of Zomborgs and drones. No issue. A squad of lowly grunts, again, easy enough.

A squad of Elites and an Officer? If I'm lucky, and it's a squad of 3. Any group bigger or stronger, and they're such sponges, chances are they're dropping me first.
I'm only prestige 10 on my Shaman, with modded guns.
Maybe it's easier closer to max, but at the moment there's no way I feel like a super soldier.

Unless I just missed it I don't think you can put a silencer on a PPSH (currently at lvl 16), if you can that would be tight.

Low EXP characters may play a part but when you have access to some of the better weapons the game becomes trivial (though like in my previous reply and OP that the AI probably plays a part in that)

My main point is that even with making choices that make you tankier or deal more damage the game allows you to become very strong. It allows you to break the illusion that was present that we aren't "this guy". Every game I've played in my life I am "this guy" and I don't want to be "this guy". I want to be an unseen shadow water goblin.

Additionally I understand that we are playing an extremely early build of the game and my concerns might not exist in the full release. I made this post because I want to give the devs feedback since they seem receptive. Genuinely I want this game to succeed and for the original vision presented to us to be fulfilled.

It's a good point. I guess I'm just yet to experience that feeling.

As stated it's early doors, I'm sure a wave of balancing (or unbalancing) is due. I'm enjoying the core of it so far though. I hope it continues to step in the right direction.

[mintjam]

Originally posted by Ghost:

Originally posted by mintjam:

Unless I just missed it I don't think you can put a silencer on a PPSH (currently at lvl 16), if you can that would be tight.

Low EXP characters may play a part but when you have access to some of the better weapons the game becomes trivial (though like in my previous reply and OP that the AI probably plays a part in that)

My main point is that even with making choices that make you tankier or deal more damage the game allows you to become very strong. It allows you to break the illusion that was present that we aren't "this guy". Every game I've played in my life I am "this guy" and I don't want to be "this guy". I want to be an unseen shadow water goblin.

Additionally I understand that we are playing an extremely early build of the game and my concerns might not exist in the full release. I made this post because I want to give the devs feedback since they seem receptive. Genuinely I want this game to succeed and for the original vision presented to us to be fulfilled.

It's a good point. I guess I'm just yet to experience that feeling.

As stated it's early doors, I'm sure a wave of balancing (or unbalancing) is due. I'm enjoying the core of it so far though. I hope it continues to step in the right direction.

Hell yeah buddy, enjoy it. The game is awesome. If it wasn't I wouldn't have made this post lol. I'm only bringing up negative points because it IS so early access. Now's the time to be like "this doesn't feel right", The only thing I have for this game is love,

[Optive]

Scavs become far too powerful in double quick no time. Every other video is " end game " and bosses being shredded, all while moving around like they are at the store looking for the milk.

Ways to combat this could be to alter the loot table to instead of finding boxes of ammo, we find single digit shells, perhaps not even all functional. Water are looted in cups rather than barrels, items are looted in a handful for every 10´th trip out tops.

In short, loot needs to be cut by 75% at least. Many more areas need to be added to maps to let Scavs hide, wait out an event, rest and reload etc.

Loot also need to be fully random to remove the " run there, turn left..tadaa water " that´s posted here and there. Make the most loot bound to actual troops and mechs. What garbage we find in the wasteland should be just that. Thrown away garbage, with a chance of fixing it or selling it for a few coins.

Imagine Stalker Gammas weapon repair system in FW. We are on our way already, but it needs to be more, harder and a lot less successful finds.

[VelxraTV]

https://youtu.be/fx9EHFsOPIQ

[Drogoran]

Originally posted by lowBlow:

Yup, pretty much. you end up as a super soldier.

if by super soldier you mean able to take on the lowest tiers of enemies in the game succefully then yes

but in comparison most other FPS game would have you walking up to a mech in the open going "1 v 1 me bruh" and winning with ease

[aplethoraof]

Originally posted by Ghost:

For me, it was simply having a suppressor that made a big difference to survival.

I haven't gotten one yet, so don't @ me if I'm wrong in this case - but in my experience: in every single stealth game silencers are a game-changer. And not in a good way.

Silencers/suppressors remove the biggest opportunity cost of firing your gun: getting caught by a swarm of hostiles who hear the shot.

Every stealth game I've played loses its edge by the time the player gets one.

I seriously wish stealth games would stop providing them.