Nerf fire rate (and the rest of this meta brainless bs)

[Lucifearus]

Literally, if there's one thing in this entire game they need to nerf and adjust, it's 1000% the fire rate modifiers from certain origins or buffs. Fire rate is so insanely powerful in Stellaris, it makes civics like purifier or less extreme versions so much stronger than anyone else. Even their equivalents such as devouring swarm, exterminator, etc, get significantly less benefit from their bonus compared to something like clones or purifier or *both*

[Lucifearus]

I mean, if fire rate as a statistical modifier was re adjusted or re evaluated, it wouldnt make clone army, purifier, etc, so overpowered that its literally banned in most lobbies and is just easily the most broken rush expansion/rush war build, even on the highest possible difficulty modifiers. It's so crazy that purifier and clone army are 10000000% stronger than most other potential builds because of this fire rate stacking meta. You play multiplayer and within 5 games youre bound to run into some kid abusing a meta clone army build who wants to talk down or belittle people because he cant handle playing on even ground with everyone. The clones kill everything, its so broken, especially when theyre psionic awakened or something down the road, the raw power modifier from fire rate will bloat their fleet to massive proportions easily, then all they have to do is spam torpedo cruisers (easily the most meta ship) and its essentially over for 99% of people

The fact Paradox can adjust/add sooo many relics and so many origins and civics but not balance clone army / fire rate modifiers , torpedo cruiser spam or add basic quality of life privileges for hosts to prevent malicious or annoying users and aid helping the game run smoothly makes me sad. i mean, i say these things as someone whos hosted many many manyyyy games, thousands of hours worth

[Snerkus]

damn i didnt know people played this in multiplayer thats wild. im sorry to hear that

[Lucifearus]

Originally posted by Snerkus:

damn i didnt know people played this in multiplayer thats wild. im sorry to hear that

eh, its not even the fact im upset over people playing in scummy ways, cause im cool w that and most playstyles. even if they kill me or whatever, lmao. It's just the sheer unbalanced nature of the clearly overpowered meta. clone army can easily rush fleets on people early and chances of winning are impossible unless youre a very skilled player using very specific ship designs etc, and even then its a low chance. purifier and clone army are just simply the easiest playstyles in the game, sure purifier picks up lategame with war, but the combat modifiers they receive is just straight cracked compared to *anyone* else

[ScreamCon]

You can play as the clone army start and use fanatic militarist combined with... whats that civic? distinguished admirality? Adding up to same kinda level as a genocidal empires. Whats worse is you can pick xenophile and a second civic like diplomatic corps to get like 3 extra envoys.

I'd argue the genocidal empires are strong, but even they cannot resist the clone army start. If you can keep aliens from leader positions you can even use clone armies more lethal firepower outcome.

[Orion Invictus]

Metas are always brainless in every game, just follow the same strategy everyone else is using that's invariably the one that gives the most benefit for the least amount of effort. That's the nature of metas, changing the actual meta won't change that.

[Lucifearus]

Originally posted by ScreamCon:

You can play as the clone army start and use fanatic militarist combined with... whats that civic? distinguished admirality? Adding up to same kinda level as a genocidal empires. Whats worse is you can pick xenophile and a second civic like diplomatic corps to get like 3 extra envoys.

I'd argue the genocidal empires are strong, but even they cannot resist the clone army start. If you can keep aliens from leader positions you can even use clone armies more lethal firepower outcome.

clone army and scion are just blatantly broken OP , especially in multi, its laughable. purifier as well but at least they have diplomatic challenges and survival is a lot for them lategame.

[Lucifearus]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Metas are always brainless in every game, just follow the same strategy everyone else is using that's invariably the one that gives the most benefit for the least amount of effort. That's the nature of metas, changing the actual meta won't change that.

This is the stupidest statement ive ever read


"metas are always brainless and exist so no point in changing it because one will always exist"

uhh how about just creating a meta thats at least somewhat balanced and healthy for people not gating them down running the same build every game,, id be very happy if the meta changed to something else allowing more creativity or variety at this point. that statement is dumb... clone army and scion have been banned in multiplayer lobbies and competitive like.. since their release bro.

crazy how you wanna sit there and read me the definition of what meta is when i didnt ask and am already aware xd. You wanna turn this into a philosophical humanity discussion my guy? lmfao of course humans will flock and adapt to whatever the drove uses and they find the easiest / more convenient for them, of course metas always exist, so what, thats not what im discussing nor is it reason to neglect balancing for proper variety or fun of players after a very long and stale period

[VoiD]

Haven't played for quite a while until recently, but yeah, there is just nothing that compares with clone armies.

Genocidals are IMO quite ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrible, the lack of diplomacy and being kicked out of the galactic union means that in every game they will end up declared the crisis, and they can do nothing about that.

A clone army, however, can get HIGHER and better bonuses than genocidal nations, not have this issue, then abuse his own massive diplomatic weight to delay or even stop them from ever declaring them as the crisis. Moreover they can stack their bonuses even further with very strong federation and/or vassal mechanic bonuses, they aren't even in the same playing field.

What's worse is that they are forced to kill all pops, so their military conquests are rather meaningless while everyone else can grow exponentially by conquering worlds, specially homeworlds, filled with pops they can imediatelly use to feed their own economy, this is specially valuable now that the devs have broken the game's balance by gradually nerfing pop growth, so that you can reach pop numbers a regular grown empire could never reach through conquest.

Any regular empire is far better than any genocidal past the very first 20 years, and clones can get all the advantages from both, basically for free, along with possibly the fastest rush/start in the game.

And yes, Scion shouldn't be considered a real origin, it's basically turning the game into a sandbox.

PS: If you throw in "become the crisis" the bonuses get so large, so strong, and the "advantage" of genocidals get so diluted that they stop mattering entirelly, honestly, all genocidal empires are basically meme picks right now, only meant to bully your closest neighbor at the start of the game, and that's ignoring the fact that clones also do that better.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by ⎛⎝Lucifearus⎠⎞:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Metas are always brainless in every game, just follow the same strategy everyone else is using that's invariably the one that gives the most benefit for the least amount of effort. That's the nature of metas, changing the actual meta won't change that.

This is the stupidest statement ive ever read


"metas are always brainless and exist so no point in changing it because one will always exist"

uhh how about just creating a meta thats at least somewhat balanced and healthy for people not gating them down running the same build every game,, id be very happy if the meta changed to something else allowing more creativity or variety at this point. that statement is dumb... clone army and scion have been banned in multiplayer lobbies and competitive like.. since their release bro.

crazy how you wanna sit there and read me the definition of what meta is when i didnt ask and am already aware xd. You wanna turn this into a philosophical humanity discussion my guy? lmfao of course humans will flock and adapt to whatever the drove uses and they find the easiest / more convenient for them, of course metas always exist, so what, thats not what im discussing nor is it reason to neglect balancing for proper variety or fun of players after a very long and stale period

Well, if you thought about it for a bit, not everything can be meta, it's simply not possible. Some strategies will inevitably be better than others. So I'm sorry your preferred strategy loses to the meta. Maybe switch up your strategy instead of demanding the devs buff it?

[Lucifearus]

Originally posted by VoiD:

Haven't played for quite a while until recently, but yeah, there is just nothing that compares with clone armies.

Genocidals are IMO quite ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrible, the lack of diplomacy and being kicked out of the galactic union means that in every game they will end up declared the crisis, and they can do nothing about that.

A clone army, however, can get HIGHER and better bonuses than genocidal nations, not have this issue, then abuse his own massive diplomatic weight to delay or even stop them from ever declaring them as the crisis. Moreover they can stack their bonuses even further with very strong federation and/or vassal mechanic bonuses, they aren't even in the same playing field.

What's worse is that they are forced to kill all pops, so their military conquests are rather meaningless while everyone else can grow exponentially by conquering worlds, specially homeworlds, filled with pops they can imediatelly use to feed their own economy, this is specially valuable now that the devs have broken the game's balance by gradually nerfing pop growth, so that you can reach pop numbers a regular grown empire could never reach through conquest.

Any regular empire is far better than any genocidal past the very first 20 years, and clones can get all the advantages from both, basically for free, along with possibly the fastest rush/start in the game.

And yes, Scion shouldn't be considered a real origin, it's basically turning the game into a sandbox.

PS: If you throw in "become the crisis" the bonuses get so large, so strong, and the "advantage" of genocidals get so diluted that they stop mattering entirelly, honestly, all genocidal empires are basically meme picks right now, only meant to bully your closest neighbor at the start of the game, and then become irrelevant to the galaxy.

i do agree with everything said here except your points about genocidal empires . People literally rate purifier and clone soldier a nd scion as the strongest possible playstyles in the entire game. Tourney level players rate purifier, clone, and scion all 3 as S+ tier. and have for a LONG time. also you know.. you can stack clone AND purifier right...? its so broken man lmao

[Lucifearus]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by ⎛⎝Lucifearus⎠⎞:

This is the stupidest statement ive ever read


"metas are always brainless and exist so no point in changing it because one will always exist"

uhh how about just creating a meta thats at least somewhat balanced and healthy for people not gating them down running the same build every game,, id be very happy if the meta changed to something else allowing more creativity or variety at this point. that statement is dumb... clone army and scion have been banned in multiplayer lobbies and competitive like.. since their release bro.

crazy how you wanna sit there and read me the definition of what meta is when i didnt ask and am already aware xd. You wanna turn this into a philosophical humanity discussion my guy? lmfao of course humans will flock and adapt to whatever the drove uses and they find the easiest / more convenient for them, of course metas always exist, so what, thats not what im discussing nor is it reason to neglect balancing for proper variety or fun of players after a very long and stale period

Well, if you thought about it for a bit, not everything can be meta, it's simply not possible. Some strategies will inevitably be better than others. So I'm sorry your preferred strategy loses to the meta. Maybe switch up your strategy instead of demanding the devs buff it?

You're twisting the convo into a stupid discussion about how i want a specific strategy buffed when im discussing *all strategies in the entire game except these few*, which have been broken since their release . Why would i switch up my strategy to a boring overpowered one which everyone has played plenty(plus its usually banned in multi like i said duh), they need to fix balance and add variety ,it isnt complicated man. Your replies are generic blanket responses and it doesnt seem like youre reading into this very well / are very experienced

[VoiD]

Originally posted by ⎛⎝Lucifearus⎠⎞:

Originally posted by VoiD:

Haven't played for quite a while until recently, but yeah, there is just nothing that compares with clone armies.

Genocidals are IMO quite ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrible, the lack of diplomacy and being kicked out of the galactic union means that in every game they will end up declared the crisis, and they can do nothing about that.

A clone army, however, can get HIGHER and better bonuses than genocidal nations, not have this issue, then abuse his own massive diplomatic weight to delay or even stop them from ever declaring them as the crisis. Moreover they can stack their bonuses even further with very strong federation and/or vassal mechanic bonuses, they aren't even in the same playing field.

What's worse is that they are forced to kill all pops, so their military conquests are rather meaningless while everyone else can grow exponentially by conquering worlds, specially homeworlds, filled with pops they can imediatelly use to feed their own economy, this is specially valuable now that the devs have broken the game's balance by gradually nerfing pop growth, so that you can reach pop numbers a regular grown empire could never reach through conquest.

Any regular empire is far better than any genocidal past the very first 20 years, and clones can get all the advantages from both, basically for free, along with possibly the fastest rush/start in the game.

And yes, Scion shouldn't be considered a real origin, it's basically turning the game into a sandbox.

PS: If you throw in "become the crisis" the bonuses get so large, so strong, and the "advantage" of genocidals get so diluted that they stop mattering entirelly, honestly, all genocidal empires are basically meme picks right now, only meant to bully your closest neighbor at the start of the game, and then become irrelevant to the galaxy.

i do agree with everything said here except your points about genocidal empires . People literally rate purifier and clone soldier as the strongest possible playstyles in the entire time. Tourney level players rate purifier, clone, and scion all 3 as S+ tier. and have for a LONG time. also you know.. you can stack clone AND purifier right...? its so broken man lmao

Yes, and then you either have to abandon the bonuses from clones by become regular breeding pops, or just not have any economy whatsoever losing to fanatic pacifist's raw power by midgame, it just doesn't really work, regular clones can do that as they can still use their elite broken pops & leaders while also conquering tons of regular pops, and letting them reproduce to fill up jobs and control more worlds, genocidals, again, break everything.

Genocidals are not and weren't "S tier" for a long time, the only reason they aren't allowed is specifically because they are good at griefing other players, they bully their neighbor with quite high bonuses in the early game and a total war CB, ruin their game/kick out the other player, then get outpaced by everyone else.

I suppose they could work in a tiny galaxy where midgame doesn't even exist, everything is over within 2 hours and a galactic community never even gets to pass anything.

And yes, just by being a militarist and in a federation you can often outweight the clone bonuses, having alliances, having the galactic commynity, not getting locked into an eternal war, not being attacked by every neighbor all game just because you exist, not being forced to purge very valuable pops are all just extra bonuses in comparisson.

Genocidals should probably have their own tier below F

[Lucifearus]

Originally posted by VoiD:

Originally posted by ⎛⎝Lucifearus⎠⎞:

i do agree with everything said here except your points about genocidal empires . People literally rate purifier and clone soldier as the strongest possible playstyles in the entire time. Tourney level players rate purifier, clone, and scion all 3 as S+ tier. and have for a LONG time. also you know.. you can stack clone AND purifier right...? its so broken man lmao

Yes, and then you either have to abandon the bonuses from clones by become regular breeding pops, or just not have any economy whatsoever losing to fanatic pacifist's raw power by midgame, it just doesn't really work, regular clones can do that as they can still use their elite broken pops & leaders while also conquering tons of regular pops, and letting them reproduce to fill up jobs and control more worlds, genocidals, again, break everything.

Genocidals are not and weren't "S tier" for a long time, the only reason they aren't allowed is specifically because they are good at griefing other players, they bully their neighbor with quite high bonuses in the early game and a total war CB, ruin their game/kick out the other player, then get outpaced by everyone else.

I suppose they could work in a tiny galaxy where midgame doesn't even exist, everything is over within 2 hours and a galactic community never even gets to pass anything.

And yes, just by being a militarist and in a federation you can often outweight the clone bonuses, having alliances, having the galactic commynity, not getting locked into an eternal war, not being attacked by every neighbor all game just because you exist, not being forced to purge very valuable pops are all just extra bonuses in comparisson.

Genocidals should probably have their own tier below F

Ngl you must be newer to the game if you think they’re not S tier, additionally you must not understand that you can just do migration treaties or make robot pops etc to supplement clones while having all fire rate buffs smh. Why the ♥♥♥♥ would you care about the clones reproducing when you just enslave or make robots/vassals on first contact man. Purifier is literally banned in most MP lobbies because a good one will expand and take the entire map. Sure a bad one will get gangbanged but that is irrelevant to a good purifier with clone soldier or something . My guy I’ve hosted near 2,000 hours of ONLY multiplayer lobbies and ran new factions every run, I’ve literally played and tried and been smacked by every build imaginable

[ScreamCon]

I would generally agree militarists and like, I think it would be more balanced if they on average got 50% or 75% of the firepower boost they got now. Just my opinion but I guess firepower efficiency is the reason people play it.

For genocidal empires they need a rework or new game mechanic they can lean on not to get obliterated. Player genocidal empires though are a menace, the fact they have no diplomacy implicates them meaning the player is pushed to psychotically eliminate other players despite their will. Leading to mobile games and their toxic game environments, its similar trust me some of those games are terrible passing of human life.

The origins are very broken, some are very weak and others very strong. Its more optimised for single player.

[Lucifearus]

Originally posted by ScreamCon:

I would generally agree militarists and like, I think it would be more balanced if they on average got 50% or 75% of the firepower boost they got now. Just my opinion but I guess firepower efficiency is the reason people play it.

Yeah, I am just tired of hosting lobbies where people lock clone army or purifier if I don’t rule it out(or trolls who do it anyway along with scion) , only to immediately own the entire galaxy, year 3 already running 10-20k stacks. Imagine being a multiplayer host, you wait 20-30 mins for everyone to pile up into your Lobby and start. Boom not even 20 mins pass and half of them have left because they’re dead to an unbeatable meta . You end up literally spending *more time in the lobby* than ingame with the rate / speed in which people die . Even my some of my newer friends have tried them and have owned the entire galaxy on GA , they didn’t even know how to use edicts or buildings / decisions, it’s so stupidly easy. Also no, no small earlygame ai fed or even player fed is gonna beat some deathstack early rush of psionic clones or purifiers unless you’re absolutely beefed and lucky with very high fed naval contribution