I don't care about the Leader Cap, just allow Science Ships to work with no Leader...

[rafael.ramus]

Maybe allow a single Scientist to influence several Science Ships in nearby systems. Maybe make so that you have to equip a Computer that makes ships with no Leaders more expensive, but limiting exploration or forcing fleets to have no commander feels... wrong (I'm trying to be kind).

Similarly:

- Allow setting a "Grand Admiral" that grants bonuses to all fleets in the system;
- Allow Sector Governors to give bonuses fully to all systems in the sector (as it used to be).

[wildlifeluvr]

re "just allow Science Ships to work with no Leader..."

Absolutely no. No way.

The new leader cap is the BEST part of the new 3.8. The game is far less frantic and the player must be much smarter on what and where to explore.

The employee who designed and tested the leader cap is brilliant. It has made the game play much smoother and "balanced". Looking back, the 20 Science Ships "shotgun approach" of the past was ridiculous --- way too much management just to run out of influence anyway.

Now, Influence seems to flow smoother as you explore with 2-3 science ships. By the time a construction ship gets there as a science ship surveyed the system, you just may have enough influence to build a starbase. As the game goes on a bit further, Influence no longer holds you back from building a starbase---now, it is having a science ship and construction ship work well in tandem. The game now is more:
*relaxed
*less micro
*more planning required

I can't express how fun the Leaders part of the new design is. I liked Stellaris before. Now, it is off the charts fun. This is a true 21st century design. If this were a movie, Paradox would win the Oscar for best Game Update.

[Ryika]

I think making exploration and surveys possible without a leader would be a reasonable change. But sending out a dozen or so science ships should not just be the default that you always want to do, so maybe increase the cost/upkeep of science ships accordingly to compensate so it's still an actual investment and a strategic choice.

[VoiD]

Well, I already used to believe discovery was a noobtrap of a tradition, as half of it is only useful in the very early game, and in that same stage both prosperity (economy and research) and supremacy (military rush) are far superior choices.

But I could, kind of, see the point if you play in a very large, empty galaxy, full of places to explore before all the empires just take every territory around them.

Now that exploration can't be spammed I really don't see any point in discovery, ever.

[rafael.ramus]

Originally posted by Ryika:

I think making exploration and surveys possible without a leader would be a reasonable change. But sending out a dozen or so science ships should not just be the default that you always want to do, so maybe increase the cost/upkeep of science ships accordingly to compensate so it's still an actual investment and a strategic choice.

I was thinking along this line.

[steven1mac]

How about making science ship able to explore, but not survey or any other specialized activities, unless they have a scientist aboard.

[gn_fighter]

Originally posted by rafael.ramus:

Originally posted by Ryika:

I think making exploration and surveys possible without a leader would be a reasonable change. But sending out a dozen or so science ships should not just be the default that you always want to do, so maybe increase the cost/upkeep of science ships accordingly to compensate so it's still an actual investment and a strategic choice.

I was thinking along this line.

frankly.. i think having the leader-cap scale with pop-size like the starbase-cap would be a more logical and better alternative solution, since the core of the leader-cap-problem remains it scalability in relation to the empire-size.

[Synopse]

Originally posted by wildlifeluvr:

Now, Influence seems to flow smoother as you explore with 2-3 science ships. By the time a construction ship gets there as a science ship surveyed the system, you just may have enough influence to build a starbase. As the game goes on a bit further, Influence no longer holds you back from building a starbase---now, it is having a science ship and construction ship work well in tandem. The game now is more:
*relaxed
*less micro
*more planning required

Interesting, I never played differently, because I loved the more relaxed, less micro and more planning playstyle. When playing tall, then that is all you need.

[MP]

The science ship swarm meta can finally die in a fire.

[wildlifeluvr]

"I think making exploration and surveys possible without a leader would be a reasonable change"

Again, no way.

The leader cap and the new science ship tactics are an integral part of the entire new design. Change that and you mess up the balance.

Paradox got it right with this new design. It's awesome. I love it more the more I tack on hours playing. I'm impressed with what they have done in 3.8.

[Ryika]

Originally posted by wildlifeluvr:

"I think making exploration and surveys possible without a leader would be a reasonable change"

Again, no way.

The leader cap and the new science ship tactics are an integral part of the entire new design. Change that and you mess up the balance.

Paradox got it right with this new design. It's awesome. I love it more the more I tack on hours playing. I'm impressed with what they have done in 3.8.

Well that's your opinion. I disagree.

[MP]

Originally posted by MP:

The science ship swarm meta can finally die in a fire.

I know I said that, but after building one unity planet up, I could field 13 leaders. I could get more, but it was becoming a micro hell.

Alas, science ship swarm is still alive and kicking.

[Elitewrecker PT]

The problem isn't the unity penalty, it's the exp gain penalty. Because you can make up for the upkeep increase but not the exp decrease.

[Duder]

Originally posted by wildlifeluvr:

re "just allow Science Ships to work with no Leader..."

Absolutely no. No way.

The new leader cap is the BEST part of the new 3.8. The game is far less frantic and the player must be much smarter on what and where to explore.

The employee who designed and tested the leader cap is brilliant. It has made the game play much smoother and "balanced". Looking back, the 20 Science Ships "shotgun approach" of the past was ridiculous --- way too much management just to run out of influence anyway.

Now, Influence seems to flow smoother as you explore with 2-3 science ships. By the time a construction ship gets there as a science ship surveyed the system, you just may have enough influence to build a starbase. As the game goes on a bit further, Influence no longer holds you back from building a starbase---now, it is having a science ship and construction ship work well in tandem. The game now is more:
*relaxed
*less micro
*more planning required

I can't express how fun the Leaders part of the new design is. I liked Stellaris before. Now, it is off the charts fun. This is a true 21st century design. If this were a movie, Paradox would win the Oscar for best Game Update.

Leader cap is the best thing to happen to this game the whole time I've been playing which is over 2 years. Now the AI expands slowly leaving more room for the player to expand and explore.
In this game, took me 30 years to even run into another AI in a large galaxy with 12 players. I had to send a ship out in a straight line across the galaxy going looking for the AI actually.

[box]

Originally posted by rafael.ramus:

Maybe allow a single Scientist to influence several Science Ships in nearby systems. Maybe make so that you have to equip a Computer that makes ships with no Leaders more expensive, but limiting exploration or forcing fleets to have no commander feels... wrong (I'm trying to be kind).

Similarly:

- Allow setting a "Grand Admiral" that grants bonuses to all fleets in the system;
- Allow Sector Governors to give bonuses fully to all systems in the sector (as it used to be).

I think if they're going to get rid of leader management like that they need to introduce a buff like more applicable military doctrines, techs, and anomaly perks that add bonuses to balance out losing control of your officers and leaders.

Even in CK you could appoint commanders for flank positions of your army depending on their traits AND still field a competent governing council. Here though you don't even have enough to run more than a fleet and an army.

[TaterDave]

I'm more having an issue with governors bloating the leader cap, if leaders are going this way then set up sector governors.