Vassalisation Howto

[Sedmeister]

I'm still getting my head around vassalisation. Last night I vassalised a neighbour as a bulwark and my economy tanked like a bastard. Took me a few minutes to understand I'd also taken on their vassals also.

I'm looking for an intro to vassalisation.

How to get potential vassals to agree to subjugation. (Ie: effects of similar and differing ethics etc, effects each element in the agreement have on their likelihood of accepting the agreement etc)

Through to effects on your economy etc etc. Any resources would be appreciated.

[manniepants]

Two ways to get a vassal. Get them to agree to it themselves, or force them to submit with a war.

Forced submission: You automatically get a subjugation Casus Beli on any empire that is overall "inferior" to you in fleet, tech, and economic power. You can chose between making them a Tributary or a Vassal (subsidiary if you are megacorp). You can set the harshness of the subject terms in your polices screen.

Convincing them to become your vassal: The main thing here is making them like you through whatever means (matching ethics, treaties, gifts etc). They are more likely to accept less harsh terms, things that the game marks as increasing loyalty. The next biggest factor is how much stronger you are than them. Having a much bigger fleet will make them more likely to accept.

You can see the terms, and negotiate them in the Agreements tab under the Contacts menu. Some vassal types take a % of your various incomes and some give you a % of theirs. This can all be negotiated, but there is cooldown between contract negotiations

[Shinobi273]

In the contacts left UI side bar,, there is another tab showing agreements to see all your vassals and the terms you have with them. As you raise your intel level, you can see what is affecting your mutual opinion of eachother and loyalty.

[mss73055]

Consider the feudal civic, so multiple vassals don't get jealous with one other.

[MP]

I just set policy to benevolent terms and get stronk, maybe open an embassy or two and improve relations, then eventually they all throw themselves at me begging to save them.

[ScreamCon]

The best way to vassalise is to don't a large empire.

Its more efficient to absorb them into your collective mass, giving aliens full citizenship lets you run sectors autonomous as all the dominos fold into your empire. 3 systems here 10 systems there 5 over there next thing you know you are the galaxy.

Be sure to get claim cost down. Whatever is left of their pietiful useless nation they won't have the pops left to resist vassalating. IMAGINE THEIR FACE IN A YOGURT CUP, and your the one with the spoon.

You see even if you could' vassalise a big empire, empires judge you based on how strong you are, so you want to make sure their weak and you lean mean. Way too much yogurt in one sitting if you ask me.

And thus, vassalisation benefits militarist empires nicely that snatch systems off their rivals like a neglectant duck losing their ducklings through a drain pipe. 'One by one they fall'

Another 10 pop planet why thank you :D

3 ducklings died during the making of this post. . .

[Bored Peon]

If you see only the Protectorate option then you have to help them increase their tech level to catch up. Once the tech level catches up they become a vassal. After becoming a vassal you can then negotiate them into being a specialized vassal.

Originally posted by mss73055:

Consider the feudal civic, so multiple vassals don't get jealous with one other.

Shared Destiny Ascension perk eliminates the multiple vassal penalty.

Also be careful if a empire has vassal and you vassalize them their vassals become yours. This can send you way up on the multiple vassal penalty causing you to have to go back to negotiate with your previous vassals.

One word fo advice on vassals, they almost always have a rebelling faction (because they AI ignores keeping them happy) and when you fight the rebels the systems can end up owned by you. You can trade them back, but after the third time the same systems rebelled I just kept them to avoid the bug of the never ending war.

This means making vassals with only one owned system is a bad idea because you lost the vassal , levels, relations, xp, etc when it rebelled.

[Shinobi273]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

This means making vassals with only one owned system is a bad idea because you lost the vassal , levels, relations, xp, etc when it rebelled.

Single system vassal can be more manageable if they don't go crazy with habitats because they get the Capital stability bonus.

Vassals can still be useful to increase the influence you get if you need a small boost.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Shinobi273:

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

This means making vassals with only one owned system is a bad idea because you lost the vassal , levels, relations, xp, etc when it rebelled.

Single system vassal can be more manageable if they don't go crazy with habitats because they get the Capital stability bonus.

Vassals can still be useful to increase the influence you get if you need a small boost.

I am telling you form experience, one system vassals with one planets simply do not work.

It is only a matter of time until there is a rebellion and the vassal instantly loses the planet. It will even remove your garrisons and kick any ships out of the system.

This is because the AI simply does not even make an attempt to keep stability, crimes, or amenities in balance. So what you see is just how long it takes those people to rebel.

[mss73055]

In my current synthetic game ultra peaceful / authoritarian I assimilate anything bordering me. Most vassals get integrated, pops scooped into my 2 own sectors. I give away planets to my warlike vassals. I let them drag me into their wars of conquest, then raid any planet down to 2.

The biggest vassal integrated so far was 777 influence. At least when integration started. In the end I moved over and melted their 620 pops.

[Sedmeister]

This is all really helpful, thankyou.

I ditched the last game because it broke my economy to the point of being unenjoyable.

Is there somewhere you can get a snapshot of how much you're paying out and/or earning to/from vassals? Is that the vassal tab?

Also, when you attempt vassalisation, do you lose the influence regardless of whether they accept the deal or not?

How do you deal with the massive amounts of influence required to pull off the deals? Especially in the early game? How do you balance expanding yourself and amassing enough influence to negotiate a treaty?

[mss73055]

Power Projection + Imperial + half authoritarian grants you 2.5 bonus influence.
Diplomacy cuts influence cost in half.

Expenses on vassals are listed in the balance at the top of the screen. You can't see details for each vassal.

You always loose the influence paid. Make sure the dialog shows the green mark before you send the offer. I always fly benevolent vassalisation. The authoritarian faction will moan about it, but I got them for influence, not for unity.

I always set the buttons to the most benevolent way possible. This usually allows for a solid relation and 4 holdings. Resource sliders I only use for compensation. In case of integration you may need to pay resources during the integration. What is fine, because otherwise you will end up integrating a dump.

I want my vassals to drag me into wars, because I'm peaceful myself.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Sedmeister:

I ditched the last game because it broke my economy to the point of being unenjoyable.

If you are not careful your vassals that are specialized can drain you. Same if you choose to send resources and tech to one.

You could have re-negotiated once the timer ran out.

Originally posted by Sedmeister:

Is there somewhere you can get a snapshot of how much you're paying out and/or earning to/from vassals? Is that the vassal tab?

If you go to contacts, agreements it should list it. If you open the negotiation when you adjust the sliders it should tel you how much is being exchanged.

[zebers]

I have over a dozen vassals and my economy is perpetually maxed out in storage and resources. Your major mistake is setting up a bulwark vassal as they are very flawed, what you want to do is setup a generic vassal agreement and instead of giving your vassal 30% of your resources for being a bulwark, you TAX them 15-30% like a proper overlord. I think you'll be suprised how much you can tax them and still maintain positive loyalty I'm usually getting 100/200 per each basic resource easily and spend my own efforts in my empire on advanced resources and fleets.

I think the science vassal has merit as the bonuses are nice but I haven't messed that yet as you take huge penalties converting large vassal into science ( my last attempt was 4000 days + 600 influence for 300 research points each)

[Sedmeister]

Originally posted by zebers:

I have over a dozen vassals and my economy is perpetually maxed out in storage and resources. Your major mistake is setting up a bulwark vassal as they are very flawed, what you want to do is setup a generic vassal agreement and instead of giving your vassal 30% of your resources for being a bulwark, you TAX them 15-30% like a proper overlord. I think you'll be suprised how much you can tax them and still maintain positive loyalty I'm usually getting 100/200 per each basic resource easily and spend my own efforts in my empire on advanced resources and fleets.

I think the science vassal has merit as the bonuses are nice but I haven't messed that yet as you take huge penalties converting large vassal into science ( my last attempt was 4000 days + 600 influence for 300 research points each)

Ok, makes sense. I've been playing megacorp so I have subsidiary and then the specific options (bulwark, scholarium etc). What are you playing and what vassal type do you use?

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by zebers:

I have over a dozen vassals and my economy is perpetually maxed out in storage and resources. Your major mistake is setting up a bulwark vassal as they are very flawed, what you want to do is setup a generic vassal agreement and instead of giving your vassal 30% of your resources for being a bulwark, you TAX them 15-30% like a proper overlord. I think you'll be suprised how much you can tax them and still maintain positive loyalty I'm usually getting 100/200 per each basic resource easily and spend my own efforts in my empire on advanced resources and fleets.

This is also where you want to either to allow expansion or not on the specialized vassals.
The amount you pay to them are based upon their income, if they expand so does your tax. If you are not careful they can easily sink your income.

Originally posted by zebers:

I think the science vassal has merit as the bonuses are nice but I haven't messed that yet as you take huge penalties converting large vassal into science ( my last attempt was 4000 days + 600 influence for 300 research points each)

Got you beat, I had one that was like 14000. That was only after I had gone a while and wonder why the conversion was so long, lol.

Originally posted by zebers:

I think you'll be suprised how much you can tax them and still maintain positive loyalty....)

There is a couple laws in the senate that increase/decrease loyalty.
The laws to increase holdings does not seem to work right.

Also, their loyalty is based upon their opinion of you. So you may want to initiate a few agreements for migration, trade, research (if allowed) that will increase their opinion and loyalty. Assigning a diplomat helps, but it costs influence when done with a vassal.

For holding you can get:
+2 loyalty for the Overlord Garrison and stationing 3 troops
+2 for Aid gives them consumer goods and gives you unity (Xenophobes not allowed)

So I think overall you can get something crazy like +10-12 loyalty. Which is overkill since all you need is a positive loyalty, it will just take longer to get above 0 into positive loyalty so specialized vassals earn xp.