pregenitor hive offspring fleet perks seem amazing

[Captainbeastfeast (Rat-ee-JiK)]

But how do they actually work? the stat that jumps out at me from 'offspring oversight' in the ship builder is the +55% evasion. But how does that actually stack up?

Anyone tested this?

[Half Phased]

It counters the natural -50% debuffs you have, for a grand total of… 5%.

It’s good, but not exceptional.

The starbase building lets you reach +15%, which is more substantial and great.

[Captainbeastfeast (Rat-ee-JiK)]

Originally posted by Half Phased:

It counters the natural -50% debuffs you have, for a grand total of… 5%.

It’s good, but not exceptional.

The starbase building lets you reach +15%, which is more substantial and great.

Yeah I saw that, but obviously it only applies defensively, which is a shame.

[Tech Enthusiast]

And once they kill the ship, your whole fleet is crippled.
Did a run with that origin and it felt awful.

You can't have 20+ fleets due to the limit on offspring ships and the moment one dies, you loose so much more. Not worth the 5% at all. Not even 15%. Other origins give much better stuff.

It is, however, a nice roleplay thing. Maybe.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Tech Enthusiast:

And once they kill the ship, your whole fleet is crippled.
Did a run with that origin and it felt awful.

You can't have 20+ fleets due to the limit on offspring ships and the moment one dies, you loose so much more. Not worth the 5% at all. Not even 15%. Other origins give much better stuff.

It is, however, a nice roleplay thing. Maybe.

I'm doing a run with it as well and it's been working fine. What difficulty do you play on?

[Tech Enthusiast]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

I'm doing a run with it as well and it's been working fine. What difficulty do you play on?

All maxed.
Every origin can and will work on any difficulty. That is not the point.
The point is: It is far inferior to almost all other origins and there is no reason to take it, unless for role playing purposes.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Tech Enthusiast:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

I'm doing a run with it as well and it's been working fine. What difficulty do you play on?

All maxed.
Every origin can and will work on any difficulty. That is not the point.
The point is: It is far inferior to almost all other origins and there is no reason to take it, unless for role playing purposes.

If you play on the highest difficulty, things are going to be a little different.

I put a few offspring ships per fleet, precisely to make sure they don't all get destroyed, but I also play on Captain or something (whichever difficulty doesn't give the AI any bonuses), so I can afford to have fewer fleets overall. If I did that in Grand Admiral, I'm pretty sure I'd get wiped out before 2250.

[Tech Enthusiast]

Not sure I even build a real fleet on GA before 2250 tbh. Just make sure you grab the points that can be defended by a single station and you are usually good untill 10k+ fleets show up.

The issue with the origin gets more apparent in the late game. When you get 2k+ alloys a month and just spam maxed fleets for the endgame crisis. I usually have 20+ fleets at that point and there are not enough offsprings for that. I think I had like 9 corvettes, 4 destroyers 2 cruiser and 1 battleship or something like that. And corvettes really just die too often, unless you totally overwhelm the enemy, which you simply can't always do and can never do against a x25 crisis. Hell, even a x10 crisis will kill enough ships to take a offspring down.

The risk of having your fleet strength crippled by a single downed ship is just a bad idea.

If they rebalanced this to be a LEADER, rather than a ship... it could work. Leaders die much less often. But the total Bonus would need to be bigger than 5%. That is like a few months of research at best. Just build another science world and you pretty much get the same bonus, if not more.

Then again: There are plenty of origins that don't offer much in terms of lategame power. This one just feels bad, because it promises power, but in realily just adds huge risks for very minor boosts, that could vanish and reverse any time.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Tech Enthusiast:

I think I had like 9 corvettes, 4 destroyers 2 cruiser and 1 battleship or something like that.

Do you remember your fleet capacity at that time?

[Tech Enthusiast]

Not 100% sure if fleet cap really does help with that.
I went from 9 corv limit to 6 corv limit after building more supply stations. Then jumped back to 8,.. down to 5... up to 9,... I would think and expect it to be tied to that, but it certainly did not work like that for me in that playtrough. No idea why it did change all over the place, but it was annoying that I build a feet and could not restock them, since my allowance suddenly dropped. Leaving the fleets useless at some station.

Fleet cap was around 1k before I stopped the game and started a new one. I think I have had 9 corv limit since around 300ish? But don't quote me on that. Don't usually look at fleet cap all that much. If energy is positive it means you can build more. ;-)

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Tech Enthusiast:

Not 100% sure if fleet cap really does help with that.
I went from 9 corv limit to 6 corv limit after building more supply stations. Then jumped back to 8,.. down to 5... up to 9,... I would think and expect it to be tied to that, but it certainly did not work like that for me in that playtrough. No idea why it did change all over the place, but it was annoying that I build a feet and could not restock them, since my allowance suddenly dropped. Leaving the fleets useless at some station.

Fleet cap was around 1k before I stopped the game and started a new one. I think I have had 9 corv limit since around 300ish? But don't quote me on that. Don't usually look at fleet cap all that much. If energy is positive it means you can build more. ;-)

That's odd. I thought it scaled with fleet capacity after playing with it a bit, which seems like the natural way to do it.

Did you lose pops and/or planets? Maybe it scales with pops.

[Half Phased]

The true power of this origin is leaders gaining experience doing nothing. This means that you’ll have high level leaders very quickly, meaning more resource output, more research speed, less empire size, faster fire rate…

As for offspring ships, you get 1 corvette for every 10 naval capacity, 1 destroyer for for every 20, 1 cruiser for 40 and 1 battleship for every 80. And that is a shared pool across all classes, so 8 corvettes will consume the capacity for 1 battleship.

The offspring ships themselves are pretty good, as they +50% hull, armour and shields.

Going beyond that, the speed buffs that origin ships give are nice in being a bit faster. But ultimately, you’re going to have 17% more fire rate (5% of offspring oversight, 12% from 4 levels of difference in admirals skill) + additional traits from leveling up over enemy fleets fairly early on and as time goes on and your admiral level cap goes on, that will grow. You get that without needing to go to war.

And don’t get me started on generals. Getting a level 5 general by just waiting is great.

But progenitor hives are definitely an origin to take for the leaders. The fleet buffs are nice, but it’s the leaders you want.

Edit: and the +10% menial drone output, and the really good defensive armies.

[Captainbeastfeast (Rat-ee-JiK)]

Originally posted by Half Phased:

The true power of this origin is leaders gaining experience doing nothing. This means that you’ll have high level leaders very quickly, meaning more resource output, more research speed, less empire size, faster fire rate…

As for offspring ships, you get 1 corvette for every 10 naval capacity, 1 destroyer for for every 20, 1 cruiser for 40 and 1 battleship for every 80. And that is a shared pool across all classes, so 8 corvettes will consume the capacity for 1 battleship.

The offspring ships themselves are pretty good, as they +50% hull, armour and shields.

Going beyond that, the speed buffs that origin ships give are nice in being a bit faster. But ultimately, you’re going to have 17% more fire rate (5% of offspring oversight, 12% from 4 levels of difference in admirals skill) + additional traits from leveling up over enemy fleets fairly early on and as time goes on and your admiral level cap goes on, that will grow. You get that without needing to go to war.

And don’t get me started on generals. Getting a level 5 general by just waiting is great.

But progenitor hives are definitely an origin to take for the leaders. The fleet buffs are nice, but it’s the leaders you want.

Edit: and the +10% menial drone output, and the really good defensive armies.

Yes they quickly cap out on level though. This only works if you can increase leader level caps as well..

I personally like the elite garrison free armies you eventually get for each hive you build..

[Half Phased]

Originally posted by cow99:

Originally posted by Half Phased:

—snip—

Yes they quickly cap out on level though. This only works if you can increase leader level caps as well..

Discovery tradition tree: +1 to leader cap to all leaders, +2 to researchers.

Domination tradition tree: +2 to governors, +2 to ruler.

Supremacy traditions tree: +2 to admirals.

Talented trait: +1 to leader level

Leader enhancement techs: +2 to leader level cap.

Edit: and if you want, there’s an ascension perk to get an additional +2… but it’s not worth picking.

[Tech Enthusiast]

Those mentioned perks all sound nice,... I honestly just did not notice them in my game.
It has been a while that I have NOT been in the top 4 by the year 2280. Kinda my personal Benchmark, since civs differ so extremely, that it is hard to weigh their strengths.

Was actually struggeling a bit as well. Without the partner I kinda bought into my alliance, I would have been wiped out by my neighboars, since I was so far behind in about everything. Economy, Research AND fleetpower. Took all the way to 2330 to get into the council and only 20 years before endgame crisis, without any repeatable techs higher than level 5.

Again: Just a personal Benchmark, but these perks certainly don't sound like I could screw something up badly. Some civs only shine if you do a very specific build. Progenitor just needs a standard tech and pop rush tactic, unless I am missing a perk that can be screwedup that is.

[Captainbeastfeast (Rat-ee-JiK)]

strangely i did a lot better in my devouring swarm xenophage playthrough. Maybe because i got the cybrex tech really early (dyson sphere tech). Its really handy being able to assimilate pops and get the associated benefits early on.