Subjugation agreement and pops

[Jet]

Im trying to vassalize someone. But I cant push the agreement any more favorable than it already is. I only demand holdings and possible future integration. Everything else barring resources (-45 research for overlord) ive granted them. Yet still they wont agree to it under these terms. When I scroll over the opinion i see -38 from the population category. Its my only potential way to successfully negotiate a contract. What is this based on? Could it be one of two things:

1. I read the wiki and it states "An empire can become a subject willingly via diplomacy, the acceptance scaling negatively with the number of pops the future subject has." Now is this based on scaling based on how much population the potential vassal has overall (meaning it will only ever become a greater malus as they keep winning wars and increasing their pop number, barring some extraordinary circumstances were they lose territory, or are raided enough to lose numbers.

2. Or, is it based on the population relative to the overlord? So As long as I increase my pops to a much higher degree than they do, the Population opinion category should decrease much faster?

[Ryika]

It's based on their total population. -0.25 Acceptance per Pop under their control.

[Jet]

Originally posted by Ryika:

It's based on their total population. -0.25 Acceptance per Pop under their control.

damn i was hoping i could bypass that malus by just having bigger pops than them. So it looks like the longer I wait the harder itll be to vassalize them, because I dont see them losing population due to war anytime soon. My question now becomes whether it is possible to alter an agreement after starting one? Would I be able to integrate them at a later date? Or would I need to release them from vassalage, only to start another one with the idea to try to renegotiate another contract with integration included at a later date?

[Ryika]

Yes, you can alter the agreement every 60 months. However, don't expect the AI to agree to terms that don't favor them, the system is quite busted right now.

[PlutonArioch]

As long as you alter the contract in small steps and keep a good relationship with them they should accept. Granting them better terms in one category can push them over the edge to accept a bad change in another category. Integration is however a huge step, and I am not sure if you can gain enough good will on other things to get that through. You would probably have to push everything else fully in your favor first, and then turn it all around in their favor to make them accept integration. If that is even possible. I am currently not planning to integrate my vassals, so I have not tested that yet. It could be that you can only force integration on them with a subjugation CB.

I have been changing several contracts for decades now though, and where at first I gave them a lot of freedom, and some subsidies in some cases, they now pay me tribute and let me build all the holdings I want.
It is a long and gradual process, but so far it works for me.

The only problem I have now is that I can't try the new vassal types with the vassals I have, because they fell so far behind that they can only be protectorates now.

[Jet]

Originally posted by PlutonArioch:

As long as you alter the contract in small steps and keep a good relationship with them they should accept. Granting them better terms in one category can push them over the edge to accept a bad change in another category. Integration is however a huge step, and I am not sure if you can gain enough good will on other things to get that through. You would probably have to push everything else fully in your favor first, and then turn it all around in their favor to make them accept integration. If that is even possible. I am currently not planning to integrate my vassals, so I have not tested that yet. It could be that you can only force integration on them with a subjugation CB.

I have been changing several contracts for decades now though, and where at first I gave them a lot of freedom, and some subsidies in some cases, they now pay me tribute and let me build all the holdings I want.
It is a long and gradual process, but so far it works for me.

The only problem I have now is that I can't try the new vassal types with the vassals I have, because they fell so far behind that they can only be protectorates now.

hmmmm i see so maybe there is value in giving them subsidies for longer to prevent them from being so weak they reach their limit as protectorates

so thats a game changer. I didnt know you could alter terms every 5 years. Does it become easier with time would you say? Like what would I need to do to further boost any additional categories outside of subsidies. Because as it is now i acquiesced to every demand minus the subsidies, except research. So if I can increase their likelilhood to accept a more favorable agreement by building their loyalty to me in the preceding years as my vassal, that would be ideal

[PlutonArioch]

Originally posted by Jet:

Does it become easier with time would you say?

So I was about to write a wall of text about my experiences so far, but then I decided to just try and push integration on my biggest vassal.
And yes, they will accept it if I just drop the basic resource tax (the only tribute I can get from a protectorate, besides what my holdings take). When I had tried earlier how much the different options are worth to them, I am quite sure it had a much higher negative for integration.

https://imgur.com/mj4zwOb
https://imgur.com/MeOR7oQ

Originally posted by Jet:

Like what would I need to do to further boost any additional categories outside of subsidies.

Just turn the screws slowly. Start with whatever gets them under your thumb, then build up leverage piece by piece, keep them in a good mood, and keep building up demands. Whatever you can get into the contract that they don't like but grudgingly accept is currency you can pay with when you want to push a big one like integration. At least it seems that way to me. Basically every time you change the contract the old contract is the basis, and lowering a demand makes them eager to accept it because its better than before, even if you still take half their income.
And I am sure relative power, or length of vassalization play a role in how willing they are to accept it, because otherwise I would have had to drop everything down into the subsidies and give them every freedom to maybe get them to accept integration.

It did get easier over time to push demands, but I am not sure yet how much of that was the growing power difference, and how much, if any was the length of vassalization or their opinion of me. Experiment yourself and find out I guess :P

This empire became my vassal when they were stronger than I was. I just saw I could click the "Propose Subjugation" button and gave it a try. They were willing to sign the contract as long as I did not demand anything let them keep all their freedom, gave them access to my sensors and defended them in case they were attacked. I figured that was a bit better than wondering when they will attack me because of border friction.
It was difficult at first to get any demands accepted, but leaving an envoy with them to improve relations helped.
Now they need me to protect them, already give me all they can, and are willing to become slaves for a tax cut.

[Jet]

Originally posted by PlutonArioch:

Originally posted by Jet:

Does it become easier with time would you say?

So I was about to write a wall of text about my experiences so far, but then I decided to just try and push integration on my biggest vassal.
And yes, they will accept it if I just drop the basic resource tax (the only tribute I can get from a protectorate, besides what my holdings take). When I had tried earlier how much the different options are worth to them, I am quite sure it had a much higher negative for integration.

https://imgur.com/mj4zwOb
https://imgur.com/MeOR7oQ

Originally posted by Jet:

Like what would I need to do to further boost any additional categories outside of subsidies.

Just turn the screws slowly. Start with whatever gets them under your thumb, then build up leverage piece by piece, keep them in a good mood, and keep building up demands. Whatever you can get into the contract that they don't like but grudgingly accept is currency you can pay with when you want to push a big one like integration. At least it seems that way to me. Basically every time you change the contract the old contract is the basis, and lowering a demand makes them eager to accept it because its better than before, even if you still take half their income.
And I am sure relative power, or length of vassalization play a role in how willing they are to accept it, because otherwise I would have had to drop everything down into the subsidies and give them every freedom to maybe get them to accept integration.

It did get easier over time to push demands, but I am not sure yet how much of that was the growing power difference, and how much, if any was the length of vassalization or their opinion of me. Experiment yourself and find out I guess :P

This empire became my vassal when they were stronger than I was. I just saw I could click the "Propose Subjugation" button and gave it a try. They were willing to sign the contract as long as I did not demand anything let them keep all their freedom, gave them access to my sensors and defended them in case they were attacked. I figured that was a bit better than wondering when they will attack me because of border friction.
It was difficult at first to get any demands accepted, but leaving an envoy with them to improve relations helped.
Now they need me to protect them, already give me all they can, and are willing to become slaves for a tax cut.

Thats such a relief. Not only does integration get easier over time but having them as a vassal locks them in to me while I build our relation with time and power. The calculation you outlined is exactly why im considering this. Right now the empire in question is an ally, but how long will that remain the case when we weaken our mutual foes? Our civics arent exactly compatible. So before then I will do as you did while keeping in mind length, opinion and power and increasing those categories to make them more willing to acquiesce to future vassalage demands.

[Jet]

And there may be other benefits not immediately known to me as well. Like espionage operations are easier against vassals, so im sure theres value in things of that nature