Why does the ai always ally up against me?

[Roderick]

For one week now I try to play this game. At first I lost against my neighbor. Just came over and took a big part of my empire after crushing my fleet. No problem, I am learning. But though I am getting better, it doesn't change anything. Second last game four neighbours ganged up against me. Last game I thought myself really got, going fast, got a fleet, set one ambassedor to get good relations with my strongest neighbor.
Forget it, three others got allied before I got a single conract running and came for anhilation. They didn't make a claim on any system, they didn't send an insult. They just said "Hey, we have some transporters with us and we are going for all your worlds.". I had a military power of roughly 3500 and those three 5000.

Is it mandatory to loose and get pummeld at the start of the game?

[Geoff]

Originally posted by Roderick:

Is it mandatory to loose and get pummeld at the start of the game?

Kinda, yes. There are fleets that may attack you in the early game and you can't defend against them. It can be really frustrating at first, but when you get strong enough to beat them back it's a pretty big high.

It sounds like you're not quite facing those opponents yet - you're still trying to figure out the best way to deal with your immediate neighbors. And the answer to that is a show of strength - you want to max out your first corvette squad pretty quickly. It will both make your newfound neighbors less eager to attack you and more eager to ally with you.

[Geoff]

Originally posted by Razorblade:

Bordering an empire you have no diplomatic agreements with will give them an opinion malus towards you.

This is a really good point. It can hurt to lose the influence, but if you want to be serious about making friends with the neighbors, offer them treaties as soon as you meet them. It will slow down your expansion, but that can be a bit of a good thing since it will also free you up to build your navy.

[Ryo]

Alternatively, a cheesy way to deal with starter belligerent empires as a more pacifist one, is the turtle strategy; Take any variant of Sovereign Guardianship (Astral Plane DLC), this will give you an unique building called Reloading Bays on your stations that greatly increase local fire rate and adding 2 extra slots for Defensive platforms on them. The civic itself, and the special council leader it gives you also greatly improve the resistance and damage of your ships and stations as long as they're in your own territory;
The strategy here is to rush Starholds as soon as possible and build a Target Uplink Computer, Hangar & Reloading bay on them on your borders, DO NOT pick FTL inhibitors, the reason why is because as long as you don't, AI is dumb enough to assume it can bypass your stations and will attempt to go through your territory with very inadequate fleet power, and basically just lemmings its way into your system repeatedly until its fleet power becomes pitiful, tada, free friends.

The only downside to this is, Sovereign Guardmanship WILL force you into a high type of play, which in turns means you'll have to win by either diplomacy or lots of vassals, never been a problem for me personally, but a lot of people prefer (rightfully) to play wide.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by Roderick:

Originally posted by Antearz:

As I said. Its hard to Judge the Exact Situation without knowing what Empire You Play and what Your Neighbors are.
So its bound to have some Stuff in it which wont Apply to You or which You already Knew ;)

An Experienced Player will usually just Kill one of his Neighbors Early to Break out. Or Bunker himself behind a Chokepoint.

That being said. This is a Rare case to Begin with.
What Empire Type are You Playing as in the First Place ? :)

I had one week off and due to bad wheather, a friend wanted to introduce me to this game he likes so much. I don't explain my empire because I played several hours a day and had different aproaches to learn different things, but all games ended up the same: Ai ganging up on me.
So, no sir, it isn't a rare case for me, it happens every time.
But I would be glad if you explain how to defend a chokepoint against double the attacking power of your entire fleet + starbase. Everyone tells me to go behind chokepoints but nobody tells me how that helps against such strong foes. Last game I had a upgraded star fortress with 18k points, more than I ever had, but two empires just allied again and came along with 35k fleet. What does a chokepoint do in that situation?

Originally posted by MΛRCUS HΞLIUS:

Every single game I play, I am usually having to fight 3 or even 4 empires at the same time if I want to go to war with one of them, simply because they all have defensive pacts with each other.

And how do you win that? I have a feeling I am missing something crucial. In games like Age of Wonders or Sins of a Solar empire I can win against higher numbers through the tactical war gameplay, since the ai isn't that smart and you can outmanouver their combat units. In Stellaris I have noticed that selfdesigned ships can give al little edge... but the battle isn't really that tactical when a fight is over within 10 seconds.

Originally posted by Razorblade:

Lastly, one Envoy is not going to do very much. If you're trying to play diplomatically, you should be sending all of your Envoys to one empire, in order to get a diplomatic agreement as soon as possible. You should also consider trying to get more Envoys through Traditions, Ascension perks, Civics, and Ethics.

I only had two envoys at that time, could have gotten a third through a tradition... and the last thing I want to do right now is going deeper in the diplomatic system. Do you have to cuddle up each time you play?

Well. Considering that this Problem seems to be Unique to You. It is a Rare Case and Apparently a Problem with something You are doing.


And the Reason I am asking for Your Empire is because this has a Big Effect on this.
As You can Guess. A Pacifist Xenophile Empire with a Diplomatic Corps that has 4 Diplomats and a Base Relations Bonus with everyone has a Way Easier Time to Make Friends than a Driven Assimilator Machine Empire which gets a Massive Debuff on Relations with anyone who isnt a Machine.



As for Chokepoints.
Chokepoints are Fortified Positions as You already Guessed.

Now how You use them is Key.


The Base Chokepoint in Early Game is a Starbase as Big as Possible with Defensive Modules and Weapon Platforms.

Chokepoints are however used in a Specific Way.


Starbases are Extremely Tanky. They can take alot of Damage before going Down.
But their Offensive Capacity is very Low.
So to use them. You Position Your Fleet behind the Starbase and let the Enemy Attack the Starbase before then Joining the Fight with Your Fleet.
Thus the Starbase working as a Tank while Your Fleet Dishes out Damages.

Most Players just put their Fleet onto the Starbase which then Results in the Fleet Rushing out Front and being Killed while the Starbase Shoots from behind. Then ending up alone and Dying without doing much as while it takes some time to Kill. Is doing little Damage.



Later in Game Chokepoints Should also Include Fortress Habitats or Planets.
Planets which have Lots of Fortresses on them thus Providing alot of Defensive Armies.
These Fortress Worlds if You got at least One Upgraded Fortress and the Inhibitor Technology will Trap Enemies in that System. So even if Your Starbase and Fleet get Defeated the Enemy Cannot Advance further unless he Captures the Fortress Planet.
Which takes alot of Troops or takes Forever to Bombard. Thus allowing You to Rebuild Your Fleet in the Meantime.
It also due to the Ground Troop Losses massively Increases Enemy War Exhaustion. Thus even if the Enemy Overcomes the System his Will to go Further is Diminished.



Your Problem tough is Generally the Diplomacy Aspect it Seems.
In General You have 1 very Hostile Neighbor. With bad Luck 2.
But You always have a few People which are also Hostile to that one and thus Willing to make Friends.

Yet You seem to have Problems making Alliances.
Which Means You either Tend to Play Empires which are Bad at Making Friends. (Hence Why I am Asking what Your Empire Looks like) Or because You are Failing to use the Mechanics to make Friends.

There is more than Ambassadors.
From Giving them Gifts right when You meet them so You can get a Non Aggression Pact Early.
To Checking who they are Rivals With so You can Rival the Same Empire and Create a Common Enemy to Coax them into an Alliance.
Likewise if your Neighbor Rivals You. Check who he has Bad Relations with an Try to Ally with them. So someone Falls into their Back if they Attack You.
And dont Forget to Check Your Policies. If You are Expansionist and thus get a Fat Border Friction Modifier to Relations the moment You got a Border. It becomes Pretty Difficult to make Friends as You basicly Declare that You want Expand Further.

[The Grand Mugwump]

The easy solution is to find an AI empire you want to ally with that doesn't hate your guts, look at who they've declared a rivalry against, and declare rivalry against those people too. They'll immediately like you a whole lot more and become much more open to signing pacts.

And the game is inherently random. Sometimes I'll be a xenophilic spiritualist and start out surrounded by fanatic materialist xenophobes or genocidal empires, which will all declare rivalries against me and cooperate to destroy me. And sometimes I get likeminded neighbors and the game is peaceful until we encounter someone further away we don't like and form a federation against them.

[Problem Solver]

Maybe you are not a nice person and the AI wants to rid the galaxy of you. Just saying.

[Roderick]

Originally posted by Antearz:

And the Reason I am asking for Your Empire is because this has a Big Effect on this.

Well, it would be good if those where listed up somewhere in the diplomatic screen. Right now I am going with a xenophobe race which could explain some hate against my empire.... fun fact, the game goes better than all games before, I have one ally and the rest doesn't dare to attack .... probably because they are punily weaker than me in this game... but it would really be more helpfull to get that listed somewhere.

Originally posted by Antearz:

Starbases are Extremely Tanky. They can take alot of Damage before going Down.
But their Offensive Capacity is very Low.
So to use them. You Position Your Fleet behind the Starbase and let the Enemy Attack the Starbase before then Joining the Fight with Your Fleet.
Thus the Starbase working as a Tank while Your Fleet Dishes out Damages.

Most Players just put their Fleet onto the Starbase which then Results in the Fleet Rushing out Front and being Killed while the Starbase Shoots from behind. Then ending up alone and Dying without doing much as while it takes some time to Kill. Is doing little Damage.

Later in Game Chokepoints Should also Include Fortress Habitats or Planets.
Planets which have Lots of Fortresses on them thus Providing alot of Defensive Armies.
These Fortress Worlds if You got at least One Upgraded Fortress and the Inhibitor Technology will Trap Enemies in that System. So even if Your Starbase and Fleet get Defeated the Enemy Cannot Advance further unless he Captures the Fortress Planet.
Which takes alot of Troops or takes Forever to Bombard. Thus allowing You to Rebuild Your Fleet in the Meantime.
It also due to the Ground Troop Losses massively Increases Enemy War Exhaustion. Thus even if the Enemy Overcomes the System his Will to go Further is Diminished.

Whelp, that is a good thing to know, thanks!

Originally posted by Antearz:

Yet You seem to have Problems making Alliances.
Which Means You either Tend to Play Empires which are Bad at Making Friends. (Hence Why I am Asking what Your Empire Looks like) Or because You are Failing to use the Mechanics to make Friends.

Well, big point is most 4x games I win by a good economy and/or being good at tactical unit combat. The latter one not really present in Stellaris. Diplomacy is not my best side. I wouldn't take any merit, perk or trait to increase the amount of my envoys. I am willing to bargain with them and gifting things to get them on a peacefull level, though. Thanks for the hint... though my diplomacy-silly-mind would have liked a "Gift" button instead of trade offers with zero counterpart on their side. xD
Still, aren't there ANY details to be found why a relationship is changing? My hardest rival, who insulted my empire and claimed systems... INCREASED their standig towards me besides actively worsening the relationship with an envoy. This is totally crazy!

Originally posted by Geoff:

Originally posted by Razorblade:

Bordering an empire you have no diplomatic agreements with will give them an opinion malus towards you.

This is a really good point. It can hurt to lose the influence, but if you want to be serious about making friends with the neighbors, offer them treaties as soon as you meet them. It will slow down your expansion, but that can be a bit of a good thing since it will also free you up to build your navy.

Thanks for that hint, too. Going defenitely friendlier now as soon as borders do collide.

Originally posted by The Grand Mugwump:

And the game is inherently random. Sometimes I'll be a xenophilic spiritualist and start out surrounded by fanatic materialist xenophobes or genocidal empires, which will all declare rivalries against me and cooperate to destroy me. And sometimes I get likeminded neighbors and the game is peaceful until we encounter someone further away we don't like and form a federation against them.

That would be genually bad in my eyes. I have no problem loosing if I know why and what to improve. But loosing by chance is just boring...

Originally posted by Problem Solver:

Maybe you are not a nice person and the AI wants to rid the galaxy of you. Just saying.

Speaking out of experience? :P

[The Grand Mugwump]

Originally posted by Roderick:

That would be genually bad in my eyes. I have no problem loosing if I know why and what to improve. But loosing by chance is just boring...

'Tis what you paid for. There's probably a mod out there that changes it though. The odds of everyone that spawns near you hating your guts is low-ish though. There's bound to be at least one empire that will join your side.

[PhamTrinli]

Originally posted by Roderick:

For one week now I try to play this game. At first I lost against my neighbor. Just came over and took a big part of my empire after crushing my fleet. No problem, I am learning. But though I am getting better, it doesn't change anything. Second last game four neighbours ganged up against me. Last game I thought myself really got, going fast, got a fleet, set one ambassedor to get good relations with my strongest neighbor.
Forget it, three others got allied before I got a single conract running and came for anhilation. They didn't make a claim on any system, they didn't send an insult. They just said "Hey, we have some transporters with us and we are going for all your worlds.". I had a military power of roughly 3500 and those three 5000.

Is it mandatory to loose and get pummeld at the start of the game?

AI decision to attack you or not depends on a lot of things.

AI personality was already mentioned. Some can be belligerent by default.
Another factor is your race picks. Are you militaristic? xenophobe?
Another one would be your government policy. Do you have it set to belligerent or isolationist?

Also, border friction is often a major contributing factor. AI by default want to keep expanding. If they can't and you're the one blocking them then if there are no incentives for them not to attack you, they likely will.

Also sort of already mentioned is exploration and making sure you contact them before they start rubbing up against your empire's borders. Get a head start by making some more science vessels and putting them on "Explore" (not survey) to speed up exploration and make contact sooner. Your government policies can also affect how quickly you decipher their language (make diplomatic contact) with other species and how quickly they can decipher yours.

Again, pay attention to what it says about their empire's civics and personality type in the diplomatic window upon making contact. If they are some degree of both xenophobe and militarism and belligerent then you probably will need to start preparing defenses at that point regardless of how good your diplomacy is. If not, if they are a more friendly-type race, then you can start investing in establishing embassy, trade deals, assigning envoys to improving relations etc.

One more thing to mention that should kind of be obvious to some degree is your fleet strength. If you have a pretty high fleet strength they will probably be less likely to attack, especially right off the bat, but it doesn't seem to make as big a difference as you might think in deterring them either.

[Antearz]

Originally posted by Roderick:

Originally posted by Antearz:

And the Reason I am asking for Your Empire is because this has a Big Effect on this.

Well, it would be good if those where listed up somewhere in the diplomatic screen. Right now I am going with a xenophobe race which could explain some hate against my empire.... fun fact, the game goes better than all games before, I have one ally and the rest doesn't dare to attack .... probably because they are punily weaker than me in this game... but it would really be more helpfull to get that listed somewhere.

Originally posted by Antearz:

Starbases are Extremely Tanky. They can take alot of Damage before going Down.
But their Offensive Capacity is very Low.
So to use them. You Position Your Fleet behind the Starbase and let the Enemy Attack the Starbase before then Joining the Fight with Your Fleet.
Thus the Starbase working as a Tank while Your Fleet Dishes out Damages.

Most Players just put their Fleet onto the Starbase which then Results in the Fleet Rushing out Front and being Killed while the Starbase Shoots from behind. Then ending up alone and Dying without doing much as while it takes some time to Kill. Is doing little Damage.

Later in Game Chokepoints Should also Include Fortress Habitats or Planets.
Planets which have Lots of Fortresses on them thus Providing alot of Defensive Armies.
These Fortress Worlds if You got at least One Upgraded Fortress and the Inhibitor Technology will Trap Enemies in that System. So even if Your Starbase and Fleet get Defeated the Enemy Cannot Advance further unless he Captures the Fortress Planet.
Which takes alot of Troops or takes Forever to Bombard. Thus allowing You to Rebuild Your Fleet in the Meantime.
It also due to the Ground Troop Losses massively Increases Enemy War Exhaustion. Thus even if the Enemy Overcomes the System his Will to go Further is Diminished.

Whelp, that is a good thing to know, thanks!

Originally posted by Antearz:

Yet You seem to have Problems making Alliances.
Which Means You either Tend to Play Empires which are Bad at Making Friends. (Hence Why I am Asking what Your Empire Looks like) Or because You are Failing to use the Mechanics to make Friends.

Well, big point is most 4x games I win by a good economy and/or being good at tactical unit combat. The latter one not really present in Stellaris. Diplomacy is not my best side. I wouldn't take any merit, perk or trait to increase the amount of my envoys. I am willing to bargain with them and gifting things to get them on a peacefull level, though. Thanks for the hint... though my diplomacy-silly-mind would have liked a "Gift" button instead of trade offers with zero counterpart on their side. xD
Still, aren't there ANY details to be found why a relationship is changing? My hardest rival, who insulted my empire and claimed systems... INCREASED their standig towards me besides actively worsening the relationship with an envoy. This is totally crazy!

Originally posted by Geoff:

This is a really good point. It can hurt to lose the influence, but if you want to be serious about making friends with the neighbors, offer them treaties as soon as you meet them. It will slow down your expansion, but that can be a bit of a good thing since it will also free you up to build your navy.

Thanks for that hint, too. Going defenitely friendlier now as soon as borders do collide.

Originally posted by The Grand Mugwump:

And the game is inherently random. Sometimes I'll be a xenophilic spiritualist and start out surrounded by fanatic materialist xenophobes or genocidal empires, which will all declare rivalries against me and cooperate to destroy me. And sometimes I get likeminded neighbors and the game is peaceful until we encounter someone further away we don't like and form a federation against them.

That would be genually bad in my eyes. I have no problem loosing if I know why and what to improve. But loosing by chance is just boring...

Originally posted by Problem Solver:

Maybe you are not a nice person and the AI wants to rid the galaxy of you. Just saying.

Speaking out of experience? :P

1.
Well. Thats what happens when You just Play and never Read the Help or Tutorials ;)
But that aside.
Empires which have a Harder time making Friends often get better Economy and Military Buffs to make up for it.
Or if You view it the other way around. Most of the Strongest Buffs as a Penalty make You less well liked by the AI.

2.
Yes. The Gifting is done in the Trade Menu. Which also gives You a Numerical Value of how the other Side Values the Trade. Which Translates into how much more he likes You for the Gift.

3.
If You Select an Empire in the Diplomacy Screen. You See their Relation.
If You Hover with the Mouse over the Relationship Value You get a Detailed Tooltip on what exactly they think and why.
You need enough Intelligence on them tough. Otherwise it just Says You dont know what they think.
The Easiest way to get that Intelligence is Generally to have an Envoy.

4.
Well. ALOT of things Affect Relationship.
Even Your Worst Enemy may have a Small Increase in Relations if You do something he Supports.
This Increase might be from Negative 1500 to Negative 1400 and thus make no Difference whatsoever.
But it was an Imporvement of Relations :P