Help - I always take the same traditions!

[atm]

I was just thinking after my latest game that I tend to always take the same traditions, with only small variations based on build. There are many traditions available and it seems to me that I should be taking others, but I can't bring myself to take something that seems as if it would only give negligible bonuses, when other trees give empire-changing effects. The ones I always take are:

-Harmony and Domination: Not even a choice, enough said. The reduction on empire size from pops is relevant even if you're ascending all your planets, as it takes time to ascend them all. The additive nature of empire size reductions means -10% and -10% can be HUGE.

-Supremacy: It affects how many ships I can stuff into a fleet, which is going to make some level of measurable difference to how my fleets perform. If I can stuff 10% more ships into a fleet, I just increased my combat effectiveness by probably 10%, multiplicatively with every other way I can increase combat effect. It also lets me have more admirals, more ships, shoot faster, and perhaps more importantly depending on the situation, adopt the Supremacist diplomatic stance, boosting my diplomatic weight into the millions. It becomes a choice between 'do I want a million diplomatic power? or do I not want it?' You can get your way a lot of the time with a million diplo weight, allowing you to eke out another -10% pop size reduction from the galactic community, and other things.

-Expansion: While I know a lot of people don't like this one, when you add the +25% empire size reduction from planets to the -50% from imperial prerogative, you have suddenly doubled the number of colonies you could hold for the same empire size cost. There's no way to describe that other than 'major', and 'empire defining'. In a vacuum (assuming, for example, 0% size from pops), twice the colonies is effectively twice the output, so how could I not take it?

Diplomacy: This is a near always-pick for me, because whatever my build, I'll probably have some king of federation type that would make it even better. Trade build? You want a trade league. Tech rush? You want a trade league or a research cooperative. Spiritualist? You want a holy covenant for insane amounts of unity. This makes diplomacy almost mandatory, so I can found the correct type of federation, but it also allows you to have twice the number of diplomatic agreements for the same influence cost, which can be an enormous boost to your economy and pop growth.

Ascension Tradition: You can't not take one, you'd be kneecapping yourself.

Statecraft or Mercantile: While the last one can be sometimes up in the air, it usually boils down to one of these two for me. Mercantile can provide a HUGE boost to trade through both the extra traders - you could consider it a switch of 10 clerks to 10 traders on a trade focused world. If I'm making use of trade in any way, it's a tempting take (particularly if, for example, I'm in a holy covenant). Statecraft is the alternative, letting me fast-track my council to high levels which can have very large economic consequences for your empire - the aforementioned traders can get as much as +6 or so base trade value from a high level merchant guilds councillor, which would take a long time to pull off without statecraft periodically dumping tons of xp on your council.

It occurred to me earlier that I have fallen into a rut and always end up taking those exact same traditions. The other traditions seem to give what amount to tiny bonuses (a few percent to a particular thing, rather than something that totally transforms your empire) and I can't make myself take them. Every time I try, I feel like I'm missing out on the transformative bonuses mentioned above.

Am I missing something? Are some of the other trees worth taking over the ones I mentioned? I can't see how +5% resource from jobs (from prosperity) can even slightly complete with -10% empire size from pops, because that -10% could in certain situations double your tech rate (if it was the last tech you needed to go down to 0% size from pops, in a large empire, for example, it theoretically could do so). 5% works out as more like 1 or 2% once you consider it's merely additive, and is just increasing the base amount, not your total empire output.

[Gundalf]

You seem to overvalue empire size reduction. Expansion is only really good on void dwellers.
Adaptability has a strong finisher which improves planet designations and scales with planetary ascension, which makes it a good combo with harmony. Enmity is top tier as long as you have rivals. Discovery is also good one.

[NorthernDavid]

Also expansion is weaker if you happen to use the virtuality ascension, given that built into the ascension path is a limit on the number of planets you can take without drastically harming your economy, so empire size from planets gets limited anyway.

[Unimportant]

If you always play in similar style then you probably will always choose the same tradition. Personally only discovery and expansion is a must take for me.

[atm]

Originally posted by Unimportant:

If you always play in similar style then you probably will always choose the same tradition. Personally only discovery and expansion is a must take for me.

Thanks for the suggestions.
I'm aware discovery is very popular, but I will usually skip it because the two things it does are (IMO) smaller than they appear. +10% research speed is actually only +3% research speed in absolute terms, when you allow for the fact it is only additive. (It would be worth +10% if you had no other bonuses, is worth +5% if you have +100% from other sources, and only +2.5% more absolute tech speed if you have +200% from other sources). If it's a choice between +2.5% faster tech (someone can correct my math), and having twice as many colonies, which would theoretically increase my tech by a lot more than 2.5%, then I'll take the extra colonies. Similarly the -20% consumer goods is only -20% on the base since it's also additive, and since there are a lot of things that increase your scientist consumer goods upkeep, unless you've built entirely to nullify it, I figure you might as well not bother (it would only be powerful if you could get it down to -50% or so, then the extra -20% would be very noticeable, but since the science rework I can't see that happening).
I kind of get it with adaptability, but as far as I can see the only sizeable benefit it gives you (improved colony designation) is also additive - which is to say if you're getting bonuses from other sources (repeatables, edicts, etc.) that 10% extra energy from an improved generator world designation kind of pales into irrelevance (even if it's been boosted by ascension tier). If you're getting +200% output from a source, as previously mentioned +10% is really only a couple of extra percent in real terms. It's a measurable increase, but I find it hard to value it against a million diplomatic weight, double the colonies, or a federation of the optimal type for my build and double the number of diplomatic agreements.

[Dev1L]

You might skip expansion, if you take other "-planet size" picks like Nanotech ascension (-50% from planets) or virtual route from Synthetic ascension combined with Oligarchic government.

[Geoff]

Originally posted by atm:

Am I missing something? Are some of the other trees worth taking over the ones I mentioned? I can't see how +5% resource from jobs (from prosperity) can even slightly complete with -10% empire size from pops, because that -10% could in certain situations double your tech rate (if it was the last tech you needed to go down to 0% size from pops, in a large empire, for example, it theoretically could do so). 5% works out as more like 1 or 2% once you consider it's merely additive, and is just increasing the base amount, not your total empire output.

The way I've approached that is to pick a tradition tree I understand poorly and make it the central focus of a game. If you never take espionage and politics, then make taking them your first priority and build your game around that choice. It'll be a different game than you're used to playing, and possibly not as successful. But if it ends up being more frustrating than rewarding, you can just quit and go back to your default mode. And if you enjoy yourself despite pegging a slightly less than perfect score, well you've learned something about yourself and the game at the same time. At the very least, it's not unhelpful to learn ways of compensating for the absence of a tradition you enjoy and rely on.

[Battlehart]

I love to play my voidforged machines, and when I do, I also pretty much always take the same traditions also. About the only thing that changes for me is I choose expansion if I am going wide and unyielding if I am going tall (allows for a much larger fleet if those extra starbases are filled with anchorages, particularly if you don't have lots of planets filled with fortresses - this works particularly well with a tall cosmogenesis build - excellent defence for the final push).

I agree that choices like supremacy seem like a no-brainer, as that one tradition has a huge impact on fleet strength. And of course, an ascension tradition is pretty much a must.

But it also matters when you take these traditions. Discovery is an excellent first pick, as it speeds up the early research (it's not just the finisher, increased station research which is a key source of early game research and also the decrease to researcher upkeep means to can have more going), gives you better picks and helps you explore faster to find good stuff, particularly anomalies (+20% between the agenda and the edict, added to a meticulous explorer mean you will have a lot of anomalies). All of this amounts to a large snowball that can end up being a huge tech advantage by the mid game.

On the other hand, Discovery as the seventh pick is almost useless (no anomalies, little to explore, research picks don't matter so much, research upkeep is not the big issue, most research is planet based and as you said, +10% doesn't count for much in amongst all the other bonuses). Equally, taking supremacy as your first pick would seem to be a mistake. It has almost no economic bonuses, nor are you wanting to build a massive fleet in the early game.

I do think each tradition does have it's play style, and their way of matching the other traditions. For instance you could go aptitude and put governors on all more of your planets for greater specialisation and economic output (more, better leaders with reduced upkeep). Go adaptability to focus on hyperspecialising planets (less housing required, less strategic resources needed and greater effect from planetary designations). Go enmity and get resources from your enemies being stronger than you (great in a game on grand admiral).

[Kufesska]

empire size is good, but you overrate it
https://youtu.be/Cb3qwE8Px-8
if you want, you can check different opinion
looks like you will desagree with that a lot, but i agree with him more than with you

[Kufesska]

my personal opinion on some of traditions:

expansion, politics, espionage, aptitude - meh, too weak
mercantile - only for full trade builds
diplomacy - i am xenophobe myself, so screw those federations
domination - only for builds where i try to maximise empire size from pops reduction(now i have only one, with sovereign guardianship)
harmony, unyilding, prosperity, adaptation - good, choose often
prosperity used to be better
supremacy, discovery - always
statecraft - it is fine, but not sure yet, i still miss leaders meta with must-have aptitude

[MΛRCUS HΞLIUS]

Well, some traditions really are just dog doodoo. You would be hobbling yourself picking them.

Ascension picks are what will define your empire more than traditions.

[BEEateMAN]

I actually ended up building myself an excel spreadsheet and input the basic weighting and modifiers you can find on the wiki. I run through that whenever I have the chance to pick a tradition, to give myself a "What would the AI do in this situation". It might not be the most efficient thing in the world, but it's been feeling nice to explore different things and feel a little me role-play-ey.

[Whispdragoon62]

I always end up with Psionics and bonuses to research and resource production.

With enough technology points you can fix anything.