So...machine immortality.

[Zargothrax]

I guess machine leaders will suddenly just start aging as if they were organic? How does that make any more sense than the current system? Machine leaders almost never seem to die due to accidents if you take the tradition perk to counter it, so I don't buy the whole argument of making machine leaders live longer. What happens when my empire leader dies? Wouldn't they take the entire consciousness with them? Or do they simply get replaced, or maybe they're exempt from the rule? There's too many questions currently.

The entire concept of machines simply dying is strange to me, sure eventually parts will deteriorate or simply cease to function, but would regular replacement of parts and maintenance not solve this issue, ignoring the fact that the memory stored within one machine can simply be transferred over to a new shell, effectively making them immortal.

I'm just worried about this change, since trading effective immortality for a guaranteed death seems incredibly lame.

[Elitewrecker PT]

The gestalt ruler and nodes remain fully immortal.

Supposedly this change results in longer-lived leaders "on average".

[steven1mac]

Rather than being unique, but bared boned, now machines are more or less the same as biological empires.

[Zargothrax]

Originally posted by Elitewrecker PT:

The gestalt ruler and nodes remain fully immortal.

The news page didn't seem to mention the leader specifically, thanks.

[Elitewrecker PT]

"Some forms of immortality, however, have been retained, like the Gestalt Councils and some special ascension traits. All Virtual machine leaders are immortal while Modularity has access to advanced lifespan-increasing traits that can be applied to your machines."

It doesn't say "ruler" but since the ruler is part of the gestalt council then that should apply to it as well.

[Soybo]

I must confess to being a bit sad about this change myself, and unless it was changed recently I really doubt machines live longer on average now. From what I remember machines only had a chance for 1 singular leader to die to accident every decade, and that chance was low. Sure if it rolled every leader I could more easily believe this change results in longer lifespans, but it doesn't.

[Zargothrax]

It does still raise the question of why the empire leader would remain immortal when other leaders wouldn't.

Also didn't even think about certain machine paragons you can find that are over 1,000 years old. I assume they would be exempt from these changes as well, but it only makes it seem more unfair.

[Elitewrecker PT]

I guess the ruler is a different kind of machine, like an intensely maintained central mainframe, instead of drones with better programing.

Paragons should be immortal by destiny traits which are also outside the normal scope.

[Cinnamoon_dragon]

Death is part of the evolution of living organic beings. Many animals have a short life span because they will be eaten anyway and from an evolutionary point of view it is important for them to reproduce faster instead of being immortal. I don't know what the point is for machines to be mortal if natural selection doesn't exist for them

[Garatgh Deloi]

Note that while they are no longer immortal, with their effective lifespan it likely wont be a issue regardless.

They start at age 5-10, having a 100 year lifespan, giving them 90-95 years of active service without any boosts.

Compared that to a normal organic leader, starting at age 27-50, with a 80 year lifespan, giving them 30-52 years of active service.

Or a Lithoid, starting at ages 50-80, with a 130 year lifespan, giving them 50-80 years of active service.

Given that they are "now affected by lifespan-increasing technologies and modifiers" i think it will be rare to lose one of old age.

Originally posted by Static-ghost:

Death is part of the evolution of living organic beings. Many animals have a short life span because they will be eaten anyway and from an evolutionary point of view it is important for them to reproduce faster instead of being immortal. I don't know what the point is for machines to be mortal if natural selection doesn't exist for them

So where are the extremely complicated machines in real life that lasts forever? There aren't any? Oh.

[Zargothrax]

I feel like having a lifespan that long almost adds insult to injury, sure for the majority of the game you'll have a good set of leaders as usual, but they might all start to die off by the end game when they're needed the most. Imagine losing all of your level 8-10 leaders just as the crisis shows up. At the very least when your leaders die younger they're easier to replace.

It also still doesn't make much sense from a practical point of view either, even when their hardware fails it's easy enough to create backups or just transfer the software to a new body, especially for a gestalt consciousness whom relies on said maintenance to survive. There's really no excuse to be losing machine leaders outside of freak accidents or battles.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Zargothrax:

It also still doesn't make much sense from a practical point of view either, even when their hardware fails it's easy enough to create backups or just transfer the software to a new body, especially for a gestalt consciousness whom relies on said maintenance to survive. There's really no excuse to be losing machine leaders outside of freak accidents or battles.

Do you know how a computer "transfers" files? There is no actual transfer involved, it makes a copy of the file at the new location and deletes the original (well if we are going to be technical it just unlists the file and unreserves the location on the harddrive, so it can still be recovered at this time if you have the right tools).

Now consider that when taking sentient beings into consideration. Would you be okey with your mind being copied to a new body while the original you are killed?

Then we have the whole "the copy process isn't perfect, each copy of a copy introduces new flaws, eventually leading to file corruption", something that isn't much of a issue in most cases or general use of computers, but imagine it if what you are copying is a mind.

Admittedly we are talking about science fiction now and a whole new form of life, so these issues might not even be issues, just trying to point out that there might be issues with the idea of them "just transferring their mind to a new device".

P.S The horror game SOMA plays around a bit with the copy mind concept if anyone has played it.

[Cinnamoon_dragon]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

So where are the extremely complicated machines in real life that lasts forever? There aren't any? Oh.

What do you mean by "extremely complicated machines"? Robots are not alive in the same sense as organics. AI is pure thought, a ghost in the machine. And the outer shell for the AI is nothing more than a tool that can be replaced. Just like people change clothes.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Static-ghost:

What do you mean by "extremely complicated machines"? Robots are not alive in the same sense as organics. AI is pure thought, a ghost in the machine. And the outer shell for the AI is nothing more than a tool that can be replaced. Just like people change clothes.

Read the post above yours as to why that idea might have a few issues.

[Zargothrax]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Now consider that when taking sentient beings into consideration. Would you be okey with your mind being copied to a new body while the original you are killed?

Then we have the whole "the copy process isn't perfect, each copy of a copy introduces new flaws, eventually leading to file corruption", something that isn't much of a issue in most cases or general use of computers, but imagine it if what you are copying is a mind.

Admittedly we are talking about science fiction now and a whole new form of life, so these issues might not even be issues, just trying to point out that there might be issues with the idea of them "just transferring their mind to a new device".

Hence why I pointed out the gestalt consciousness part of the deal, they would have had to figured out some way around those issues for there to be such a consciousness in the first place, otherwise it would have died out after a few generations or became degradated beyond comprehension. It's confirmed that the gestalt leader is immortal, which seems to imply just that.

I also don't think a robot would have concerns regarding their personality, especially as a part of a gestalt consciousness. If anything, the leader is the only one who may have concerns, but they apparently wouldn't have to worry about that at all.

SOMA is pretty cool though.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Zargothrax:

Hence why I pointed out the gestalt consciousness part of the deal, they would have had to figured out some way around those issues for there to be such a consciousness in the first place, otherwise it would have died out after a few generations or became degridated beyond comprehension. It's confirmed that the gestalt leader is immortal, which seems to imply just that.

I also don't think a robot would have concerns regarding their personality, especially as a part of a gestalt consciousness. If anything, the leader is the only one who may have concerns, but they apparently wouldn't have to worry about that at all.

Well i admittedly focused more on the individual robots perspective.

How exactly a hive mind would function is a bit too alien. But the leader drones of a machine gestalt has always been described as semi autonomous drones, as in they act beyond just receiving orders from the hive mind, one could speculate that they would face the same issues as individual robots when it comes to copying their minds.

Even if i admit that its more far fetched in their case.